John 14:14

[Faith1960]

No, that’s not what I’m saying. Some illnesses/conditions aren’t cured because God has other plans for those afflicted. We are born with such things because we are fallen creatures.

Why are we fallen creatures?

 

[Della]

Why are we fallen creatures?

Because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and lost sanctifying grace. By losing it they lost the perfection they had enjoyed which was not merely spiritual, but mental and emotional, and physical, as well. Our nature became corrupted which is why we have illnesses/genetic conditions, etc., and physically die.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I see too many good things the Lord has done for us during this temporary life. I can’t bring myself to question things that seem unusual to me. I am finite, He is infinite. Everything He does or allows can be used for the good.

That’s okay, I’ll question enough for the both of us

The way I see it an all-powerful and all-loving god could bring about good without resorting to the use of evil.

And even then it doesn’t answer the question why there is a clear dividing line between those ailments which prayer allegedly can fix and those which we know it can not.

To stop questioning is to fear answers.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

See my first couple of posts in response to Faith’s first question.

OK, let’s take a look:

Js.42.[3] You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

The promise presupposes that one asks in accord with God’s will and not for self-centered reasons.

God always answers prayer, but sometimes the answer is not yet or no. He does this for our good–for our salvation rather than to satisfy temporal needs, if he deems it necessary.

If all they were thinking of was his physical well-being then they weren’t necessarily praying according to God’s will. God is not a slot machine into which we put our prayers and out pops what we wanted. We must always pray that what we desire be in accord with God’s will and our soul’s good because that is what matters to God the most. All of us are going to die, whether we die young or old isn’t the problem, it’s are we ready to die that matters.

As Dorothy noted in her response to Faith1960, prayer doesn’t cure Down’s Syndrome or an underdeveloped limb. I would add missing appendages to that as well. There are two categories of ailments: That which prayer can cure and that which can not. You’ve noted that sometimes prayers aren’t answered because it is not according to God’s will or because it is self-centered. I’ve heard from others on other threads that the problem with the methology, how one prays, that can cause prayers not to be answered. The thing is I can’t imagine that those who pray with sincerity to be rid of those ailments which can’t be cured (or to have people they know be rid of those ailments) are any more self-centered than those whose prayers are answered. There’s something more beyond how or why one prays but the ailments themselves.

To me it’s no coincidence that the split between that which prayer can and can’t heal is exactly that of those ailments which can heal naturally and those that can’t. Cancer can go into remission, but Down’s Syndrome can not. A disease which causes blindness can subside but a missing eyeball will never grow back.

These are imperfections not illnesses–they do not kill the person. Most cures are of deadly illnesses, such as those attested to at Lourdes. All of us have imperfections, but most of these imperfections aren’t as recognizable as others. I’ll take myself as an example. I’m quite petite–under 5’ tall. In the world we live in I can have some difficulties dealing with things like driving (most cars are not designed for small persons), getting things down off grocery shelves, opening commercial doors (some are quite heavy for me). Should I beg God to make me taller? Especially since being taller would make my weight less of a problem, as well? Hardly. I may have imperfections, but I am perfectly loved. As are my nephews with MD, even though they are very limited in mobility and even in movement. It is how we treat people who have such limitations that is important in our fallen world, not the limitations themselves that matter. Such limitations remind us that we are to love one another as we are, not as we’d like to think of ourselves. When we are resurrected we’ll have perfect bodies–I may still be petite, but I’ll be perfected in love and that’s all that matters.

Was Jesus not the one to make blind see and the lame walk? Clearly he felt these imperfections were important enough to cure then. Surely diseases which not only prevent one from walking but also prevent most activities should be curable by sincere prayer if he cured lesser ailments.

 

[Della]

OK, let’s take a look:

As Dorothy noted in her response to Faith1960, prayer doesn’t cure Down’s Syndrome or an underdeveloped limb. I would add missing appendages to that as well. There are two categories of ailments: That which prayer can cure and that which can not. You’ve noted that sometimes prayers aren’t answered because it is not according to God’s will or because it is self-centered. I’ve heard from others on other threads that the problem with the methology, how one prays, that can cause prayers not to be answered. The thing is I can’t imagine that those who pray with sincerity to be rid of those ailments which can’t be cured (or to have people they know be rid of those ailments) are any more self-centered than those whose prayers are answered. There’s something more beyond how or why one prays but the ailments themselves.

To me it’s no coincidence that the split between that which prayer can and can’t heal is exactly that of those ailments which can heal naturally and those that can’t. Cancer can go into remission, but Down’s Syndrome can not. A disease which causes blindness can subside but a missing eyeball will never grow back.

I see you haven’t read my further posts. It’s not the certain conditions cannot be healed, but rather that they are not necessary to life. Besides this, God can heal anyone he wishes for any reason he likes, but that’s entirely up to him. We may ask for healing but sometimes the answer is not yet or no. God doesn’t have to heal merely because he can.

Was Jesus not the one to make blind see and the lame walk? Clearly he felt these imperfections were important enough to cure then. Surely diseases which not only prevent one from walking but also prevent most activities should be curable by sincere prayer if he cured lesser ailments.

Indeed, he did. What you apparently don’t understand about Jesus’ healing ministry is that he healed, not merely because people were in need of healing, but as a sign to Israel that he was their Messiah. Indeed, he was so adamant about that that he limited how many Gentiles he healed because his first mission was to his own people. After his death and resurrection he then commission his Apostles to go to the whole world with his ministry. Israel’s leadership had rejected him even after all the signs he’d given them, so now he extended his ministry to all. In short, no one can read Scripture “cold” and know its meaning. It has several contexts in which it needs to be read and understood–one of which is historical and another is why things were done when they were and why. I have some understanding of these things because I studied them, earning a B. A. in Bible. I’m not an expert by any means, but I know enough to understand some of these basic things.

 

[Faith1960]

I see you haven’t read my further posts. It’s not the certain conditions cannot be healed, but rather that they are not necessary to life. Besides this, God can heal anyone he wishes for any reason he likes, but that’s entirely up to him. We may ask for healing but sometimes the answer is not yet or no. God doesn’t have to heal merely because he can.

So why then, other than one revival I heard about years ago ( and it sounded like a crackpot thing) doesn’t God cure certain ailments one would deem incurable?

 

[Della]

So why then, other than one revival I heard about years ago ( and it sounded like a crackpot thing) doesn’t God cure certain ailments one would deem incurable?

1. Because he’s under no obligation to do so.
2. Because if he did that no one would ever die. We’re all going to die from some ailment or other–or from our bodies simply giving out–which is genetically inherent in all of us.
3. It’s not his will in every case to heal. Remember, he decides what is best for each of us, not merely what we’d like to happen.

This is the way it is because God is God and we aren’t him. He understand what is best and we don’t. And that’s all there is to that.

 

[Faith1960]

1. Because he’s under no obligation to do so.
2. Because if he did that no one would ever die. We’re all going to die from some ailment or other–or from our bodies simply giving out–which is genetically inherent in all of us.
3. It’s not his will in every case to heal. Remember, he decides what is best for each of us, not merely what we’d like to happen)

I’m mainly talking about why none or virtually none of amputees or those with deformed limbs are cured. Ever.

 

[Della]

I’m mainly talking about why none or virtually none of amputees or those with deformed limbs are cured. Ever.

You contradicted yourself here. First you claim “virtually none” has been cured. And then you state “ever.” You can’t have it both ways. Either some have been cured or none have.

Again, and for the last time, God heals whom he pleases. And, losing a limb is not life-threatening. I will not go over the same ground again and again. It seems you insist God must do what you’d like him to do, but he doesn’t answer to us. If you won’t accept that, then you’ll never have peace with this issue. Good-bye and all the best to you.

 

[Faith1960]

You contradicted yourself here. First you claim “virtually none” has been cured. And then you state “ever.” You can’t have it both ways. Either some have been cured or none have.

Again, and for the last time, God heals whom he pleases. And, losing a limb is not life-threatening. I will not go over the same ground again and again. It seems you insist God must do what you’d like him to do, but he doesn’t answer to us. If you won’t accept that, then you’ll never have peace with this issue. Good-bye and all the best to you.

I contradicted myself on purpose – there was a revival in the early 1900’s or late 1800’s where it’s claimed God healed amputees yet I question that, hence the virtually none, ever.

 

[PNEUMA]

Why does Scripture say " If you ask anything in my name I will do it" yet not all prayers are answered?

Because the are not prayed in Jesus name

 

[PNEUMA]

Faith1960;14002361:

Why does Scripture say " If you ask anything in my name I will do it" yet not all prayers are answered?

I remember being taught that “in my name” (which is included in the above sentence), means according to His Divine Will!

God wills for us only what is good for our sanctification and ultimate salvation. So, we can pray for various types of things, but always say “Your holy will be done”.

no that’s not what “in my name” means

 

[adamhovey1988]

Why does Scripture say " If you ask anything in my name I will do it" yet not all prayers are answered?

I have said this before, and I will say it again. Sometimes the answer is “no”. How is that “not all prayers are answered”? If someone prays for something horrible to happen to someone, would you really want they prayer to be answered in that way?

 

[Faith1960]

I have said this before, and I will say it again. Sometimes the answer is “no”. How is that “not all prayers are answered”? If someone prays for something horrible to happen to someone, would you really want they prayer to be answered in that way?

But why is the answer no always, like regrowing a limb but the answe is yes or not now for other health issues?

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I see you haven’t read my further posts.

I did read them, which is exactly why I responded as I did

It’s not the certain conditions cannot be healed, but rather that they are not necessary to life. Besides this, God can heal anyone he wishes for any reason he likes, but that’s entirely up to him. We may ask for healing but sometimes the answer is not yet or no. God doesn’t have to heal merely because he can.

I think Faith1960 said it best when asking why in the case of missing limbs that the answer is always no. It’s not as though God is looking at each person with one or more missing limbs and assessing whether he or she should have their prayer answered. It’s not as though there is maybe a smaller than average yet still non-zero percentage of those people whose prayers have been answered. It’s just zero.

As far as your suggestion that God has arbitrarily decided after Jesus’ death to only cure conditions which are not necessary for life, a quick internet search will show quite a few people who claim that prayer did just that. A believer says prayer cured his paralysis, which means God wants at least some to walk, yet where are the believers who said prayer restored a soldier’s missing legs? A believer says prayer cured his glaucoma, which means God wants some to see, yet where are the believers who said prayer restored a person’s lost eyes?

Indeed, he did. What you apparently don’t understand about Jesus’ healing ministry is that he healed, not merely because people were in need of healing, but as a sign to Israel that he was their Messiah.

And how would that sign be tainted by letting a person born without arms gain them to hug her parents?

Indeed, he was so adamant about that that he limited how many Gentiles he healed because his first mission was to his own people.

Have there not been Jews who have made intercessory prayer to regain lost or never-had body parts? Have there not been both Jews and Gentiles who have received a yes answer to prayers that were not life and death?

After his death and resurrection he then commission his Apostles to go to the whole world with his ministry. Israel’s leadership had rejected him even after all the signs he’d given them, so now he extended his ministry to all. In short, no one can read Scripture “cold” and know its meaning. It has several contexts in which it needs to be read and understood–one of which is historical and another is why things were done when they were and why. I have some understanding of these things because I studied them, earning a B. A. in Bible. I’m not an expert by any means, but I know enough to understand some of these basic things.

I believe one of those basic things is not to add to scripture. The reasoning given that healing prayer only works for those necessary of life items is simply not there. It is a post hoc explanation for why there is a segregation between that which prayer may be able to fix and that which we can say for certain it can’t fix.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Because the are not prayed in Jesus name

Are you suggesting that every single solitary person with missing limbs did not pray in Jesus’ name? Not one quadriplegic – not even one – crying up to the heavens at night ever got a yes to his or her prayers because the formatting of the prayer was wrong absolutely every time?

 

[SirEwenii]

Most people have a fundemental misunderstanding of what it means to pray in Jesus name. It does not mean just adding, “I pray this in Jesus’ name” at the end of your prayer. When you do anything in someone else’s name you are doing it on their behalf. To pray “In Jesus’ name” in a sense means to do it one His behalf, or to do it acting as His person. If you pray anything outside of the will of God you are not praying in His name because you are not praying in His behalf. Jesus’ prayer was always, “Father glorify Your Name” John 12:28

We have to pray as Jesus, with Jesus desires and Jesus heart.How rarely do we do this? Yet of course we have to: He is our great High Priest interceding for us. Jesus is saying we have to pray like Him.

If you pray for what Jesus prayed for, if you pray with His heart so that you can say that you can represent Him in your prayer, you can act in His name then our Father in heaven will do it.

Perhaps that old acronym should be WWJP: What would Jesus Pray

 

[PNEUMA]

Most people have a fundemental misunderstanding of what it means to pray in Jesus name. It does not mean just adding, “I pray this in Jesus’ name” at the end of your prayer. When you do anything in someone else’s name you are doing it on their behalf. To pray “In Jesus’ name” in a sense means to do it one His behalf, or to do it acting as His person. If you pray anything outside of the will of God you are not praying in His name because you are not praying in His behalf. Jesus’ prayer was always, “Father glorify Your Name” John 12:28

We have to pray as Jesus, with Jesus desires and Jesus heart.How rarely do we do this? Yet of course we have to: He is our great High Priest interceding for us. Jesus is saying we have to pray like Him.

If you pray for what Jesus prayed for, if you pray with His heart so that you can say that you can represent Him in your prayer, you can act in His name then our Father in heaven will do it.

Perhaps that old acronym should be WWJP: What would Jesus Pray

My understanding is that you yourself have to be Jesus praying, not just imitate him. He must be in you and you must be in him.

So not “pray like Him” but as Him, as you are Him. That works for me.

 

[Della]

I did read them, which is exactly why I responded as I did

I think Faith1960 said it best when asking why in the case of missing limbs that the answer is always no. It’s not as though God is looking at each person with one or more missing limbs and assessing whether he or she should have their prayer answered. It’s not as though there is maybe a smaller than average yet still non-zero percentage of those people whose prayers have been answered. It’s just zero.

As far as your suggestion that God has arbitrarily decided after Jesus’ death to only cure conditions which are not necessary for life, a quick internet search will show quite a few people who claim that prayer did just that. A believer says prayer cured his paralysis, which means God wants at least some to walk, yet where are the believers who said prayer restored a soldier’s missing legs? A believer says prayer cured his glaucoma, which means God wants some to see, yet where are the believers who said prayer restored a person’s lost eyes?

And how would that sign be tainted by letting a person born without arms gain them to hug her parents?

Have there not been Jews who have made intercessory prayer to regain lost or never-had body parts? Have there not been both Jews and Gentiles who have received a yes answer to prayers that were not life and death?

I believe one of those basic things is not to add to scripture. The reasoning given that healing prayer only works for those necessary of life items is simply not there. It is a post hoc explanation for why there is a segregation between that which prayer may be able to fix and that which we can say for certain it can’t fix.

I never stated that God never heals unless it is necessary to life–I stated that he doesn’t always do so–for that reason. Missing limbs are nothing I would wish on anyone, but some people are born without them. Are we telling them that they’re worth less because they can’t hug family members? God thinks they are worthy of his love with or without arms. I think that’s how God wants us to think of them, as well. Perfection of mind or body isn’t necessary for happiness in this life–if it were no one could be happy because no one possesses either one.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I never stated that God never heals unless it is necessary to life–I stated that he doesn’t always do so–for that reason.

Your responses were to questions about why God seemingly never cures those ailments which can’t resolve themselves on their own (like Down’s Syndrome and missing limbs). So if you’re saying now that God will at least sometimes cure ailments which affect functions not necessary for life, then you should address why when he does he never cures ones that nature can’t fix.

Missing limbs are nothing I would wish on anyone, but some people are born without them. Are we telling them that they’re worth less because they can’t hug family members? God thinks they are worthy of his love with or without arms. I think that’s how God wants us to think of them, as well. Perfection of mind or body isn’t necessary for happiness in this life–if it were no one could be happy because no one possesses either one.

But you said yourself (at least now you have) that God doesn’t just cure those things which are necessary for life. Again, look at my previous post to you. Here’s a longer breakdown of what I said.

1. There are those who claim that prayer cured them of things which impeded their functionality, while at the same time were not life-threatening.
2. Included are people who said prayer allowed them to walk, use their arms, see, and hear where they earlier couldn’t.
3. By 1 and 2 we can say that (assuming God and prayer were the catalysts for their recoveries) that God will sometimes give function and abilities to those who lack it if they pray for it.
4. If 1, 2, and 3 above are true then the question of whether God could conceivably restore a function or ability does not rest on the type of function or ability.
5. A person who has an eye ailment is just as blind as someone missing their eyes (whether lost or never born with them). People have claimed that prayer has restored their sight but no one has gained eyes through prayer.
6. A person who has an ear ailment is just as deaf as someone missing their ears (whether lost or never born with them). People have claimed that prayer has restored their hearing but no one has gained ears through prayer.
7. A person who is paralyzed from the waist down is just as immobile as someone missing their legs (whether lost or never born with them). People have claimed that prayer has restored their ability to walk but no one has gained legs through prayer.
8. A person who is paralyzed from the neck down is just as incapable of holding something as someone missing their arms (whether lost or never born with them). People have claimed that prayer has restored their arm functionality but no one has gained arms through prayer.
9. From 4 we know that God will in some cases restore function and ability to people, but 5 though 8 show that there appear to be limits to when God seems to answer such prayer. The dividing line between what prayers God answers is based on the nature of the ailment and not the function or ability said ailment prevents.
10. That dividing line in 9 not coincidentally is that which the body can sometimes naturally fix. In other words, a person praying to a deity which does not exist or who does not pray at all will have the same divide as to what ailments can and can’t be cured.

Why does that divide exist for a God that is said to be limitless in power and has shown (based on numerous followers) to wish to restore function in the same way growing or re-growing body parts would also restore functionality?