(John 14:15) "If you love me you will keep my commandmens." Do You?

[Giver]

trogiah:

Perhaps it is worth considering the dilemma of the rich young man who came up to Jesus and asked about the path to life. Jesus’s first response was that he should keep the commandments. Clearly there is life to be found in keeping the commandments, even if you are rich.

Then, because the young man asks for more, Jesus offers an additional invitation. To give up everything and follow him.

There is a fullness of life that can be found by renouncing ones earthly possessions. It doesn’t mean necessarily that one can’t have a savings account with their name attached to it but it means that if you went there and found the savings account empty that you would be able to accept it.

So, leave behind everything and go from town to town, accepting food that people offer, and saying “The reign of God is at hand.” (The better you understand that phrase, the easier it is to do that.)

Why not?

peace

Jim

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Ah Giver, Jesus also said, (Matthew 8:20) “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

Does that mean we all must be homeless?

In the parable, Jesus called the man who did not even go to the bank evil. In the parable if you did not figure it out, the Master who is speaking is God in the person of Jesus.

Proverbs 21:5
The plans of the diligent lead to profit

The other texts I posted proves your case to be hopeless.

The very concept of the “year of Jubilee” blows your whole claim out of the water. The word creditor deals with interrest.

Deuteronomy 15

The Year for Canceling Debts

1 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed. 3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your brother owes you. 4 However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only you fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.
7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.

Freeing Servants
12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.
16 But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.

18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because his service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do.

Now, with this background look at Jesus words in Luke 6

32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
**
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
**
38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Giver why do you ignore verses 36 & 37? You have sinned on this board according to these verses.

Luke 6 is about the heart. It does not say Christians can not make investments with companies. One does not put their money into the bank not expecting it to be there when they come to take some money out.

Who is Luke 6 talking about loaning stuff to?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Note: Luke 6:38 above involves interrest.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Luke 16
The Parable of the Shrewd Manager

1Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’
3"The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— 4I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’

5"So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

6" ‘Eight hundred gallons[a] of olive oil,’ he replied.
"The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.’

7"Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’
" ‘A thousand bushels** of wheat,’ he replied.
"He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’
**
8"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
**
10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own?

13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight.

Basically, Wealth, investing, or whatever has to do with one’s heart, not if they make wise investments.**

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Ah Giver, Jesus also said, (Matthew 8:20) “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

Does that mean we all must be homeless?

 

[cheeto1]

Just what does it mean to “keep my commandments”?

At the end, there was only one: Love one another as I have
loved you.

We can spend a lifetime trying to figure out what the 10
commandments really mean.

#1 - Love the Lord with all your heart, etc… – What if right
now I was praying instead of being on the computer? Do
I love the computer more than God?

#2 - Don’t worship idols – Lots of people say there are more
idols than just worshipping statues and calling them God.
(money, possessions, etc)

#3 - Don’t take the name of the Lord in vain – This Sunday
my priest said “oh my god” twice. Does that count?

#4 - keep holy the sabbath day – Does that just mean go
to church? or should we do something else like not buy
things or work?

#5 - Honor thy father and mother – What does that mean to
a grown up? How often must parents be honored and
in what ways?

#6 - thou shalt not kill – Jesus said this includes being angry
with your brother. Who is my brother? What if it’s Hitler
or Osama Bin laden?

#7 - thou shalt not commit adultery – what if you are invited
to a second (or third, etc.)marriage? should you publicly
support it to spare hard feelings?

#8 - thou shalt not steal – what about tithing? are we
stealing from God by not tithing? And what if in light of
all Jesus did in the New Testament, we are actually
now expected to tithe much more than a measly 10%?

#9 - thou shalt not bear false witness, etc. - Can we ever lie
about anything?

#10 - Thou shalt not covet - is it a sin to want a computer like
so and so has to go on Catholic Answers Forum?

And the new commandment Jesus gave: Love one another as
I have loved you. How do we do that?

When we figure out how we are sinning or not on the subject of
interest, there are a thousand more sin questions.

 

[geezerbob]

(Matthew 6:19)

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

Why don’t you give up your computer, then come back and talk to us. The Bible speaks of those who preach the law but don’t follow it themselves. Remember reading that?

By the way, why should anyone think that your interpretation os Scripture is more accurate or inspired than theirs?

 

[Giver]

Daniel Marsh:

Ah Giver, Jesus also said, (Matthew 8:20) “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

Does that mean we all must be homeless?

In the parable, Jesus called the man who did not even go to the bank evil. In the parable if you did not figure it out, the Master who is speaking is God in the person of Jesus.

Proverbs 21:5
The plans of the diligent lead to profit

The other texts I posted proves your case to be hopeless.

The very concept of the “year of Jubilee” blows your whole claim out of the water. The word creditor deals with interrest.

Deuteronomy 15

The Year for Canceling Debts

1 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed. 3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your brother owes you. 4 However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only you fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.
7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.

Freeing Servants
12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.
16 But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.

18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because his service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do.

Now, with this background look at Jesus words in Luke 6

32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
**
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
**
38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Giver why do you ignore verses 36 & 37? You have sinned on this board according to these verses.

Luke 6 is about the heart. It does not say Christians can not make investments with companies. One does not put their money into the bank not expecting it to be there when they come to take some money out.

Who is Luke 6 talking about loaning stuff to?

(Acts 2:44-45) “The faithful all lived together and owned everything in common; they sold their goods and possessions and shared out the proceeds among themselves according to what each one needed.”

 

[Giver]

cheeto1:

Just what does it mean to “keep my commandments”?

At the end, there was only one: Love one another as I have
loved you.

We can spend a lifetime trying to figure out what the 10
commandments really mean.

#1 - Love the Lord with all your heart, etc… – What if right
now I was praying instead of being on the computer? Do
I love the computer more than God?

#2 - Don’t worship idols – Lots of people say there are more
idols than just worshipping statues and calling them God.
(money, possessions, etc)

#3 - Don’t take the name of the Lord in vain – This Sunday
my priest said “oh my god” twice. Does that count?

#4 - keep holy the sabbath day – Does that just mean go
to church? or should we do something else like not buy
things or work?

#5 - Honor thy father and mother – What does that mean to
a grown up? How often must parents be honored and
in what ways?

#6 - thou shalt not kill – Jesus said this includes being angry
with your brother. Who is my brother? What if it’s Hitler
or Osama Bin laden?

#7 - thou shalt not commit adultery – what if you are invited
to a second (or third, etc.)marriage? should you publicly
support it to spare hard feelings?

#8 - thou shalt not steal – what about tithing? are we
stealing from God by not tithing? And what if in light of
all Jesus did in the New Testament, we are actually
now expected to tithe much more than a measly 10%?

#9 - thou shalt not bear false witness, etc. - Can we ever lie
about anything?

#10 - Thou shalt not covet - is it a sin to want a computer like
so and so has to go on Catholic Answers Forum?

And the new commandment Jesus gave: Love one another as
I have loved you. How do we do that?

When we figure out how we are sinning or not on the subject of
interest, there are a thousand more sin questions.

Why don’t you make a thread out of each one of you questions? It would be very interesting and I’m sure you would learn a lot.

 

[Pax]

(Acts 2:44-45) “The faithful all lived together and owned everything in common; they sold their goods and possessions and shared out the proceeds among themselves according to what each one needed.”

You’ve used this quote several times in your posts elsewhere on the forums. This is truly a wonderful quote concerning what was going on immediately following Pentecost in Jerusalem. Clearly, the early church needed a jump start to get going and the need for preaching and teaching was so great that those that evangelized needed as much physical/financial support as possible. Generosity and giving have always been encouraged but “not required” in the fashion that you interpret the passage.

We know this to be true because there are many passages elsewhere in the Book of Acts and the other epistles where it is clear that Christians outside of the immediate period following Pentecost were not selling everything that they had. Moreover, they were not being asked to do so. In Acts 10 we read about Cornelius the centurion. He is described in Acts 10:2 as a devout man that “gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God.” There is also mention of his “household.” Peter visits Cornelius after receiving a vision and it becomes clear that an angel had been sent by God to Cornelius to summon Peter, that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his household, and that all of them were baptized. They were all Christian believers and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius serves as a wonderful example of how God was saving, not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well.

So what is the up shot of this passage and how does it apply to the discussion? Cornelius never gave up his household and was never asked to do so. I can give many other examples as to the truth in this matter and how your interpretation is too narrow and taken out of the proper context of the Book of Acts. If need be, I will supply the extra biblical data.

I hope this helps.

 

[MikeinSD]

This issue – can one sin with money – has come up in other threads. The posters seem to agree that people cannot sin with their wallets. And the biblical cites you posted are “non-operative” because they interfere with a free enterprise market economy. Religion is all well and good but money is money.

My history with cold hard cash was a good investment with some (devout Christian) relatives. We would buy up distressed residential properties with poorly peforming mortgages. Then lobby the county or state governments to re-zone for commercial use. Of course the right amnt of cash in the right hands worked wonders. Once the re-zone passed, evict the people from their homes. This was mostly in the south and in exclusively black neighborhoods. Resell the properties. Got a 14% return. Not a bad investment. Obviously Christianity has nothing to with it. And why should it? This is the market at work.

 

[Giver]

Pax:

You’ve used this quote several times in your posts elsewhere on the forums. This is truly a wonderful quote concerning what was going on immediately following Pentecost in Jerusalem. Clearly, the early church needed a jump start to get going and the need for preaching and teaching was so great that those that evangelized needed as much physical/financial support as possible. Generosity and giving have always been encouraged but “not required” in the fashion that you interpret the passage.

We know this to be true because there are many passages elsewhere in the Book of Acts and the other epistles where it is clear that Christians outside of the immediate period following Pentecost were not selling everything that they had. Moreover, they were not being asked to do so. In Acts 10 we read about Cornelius the centurion. He is described in Acts 10:2 as a devout man that “gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God.” There is also mention of his “household.” Peter visits Cornelius after receiving a vision and it becomes clear that an angel had been sent by God to Cornelius to summon Peter, that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his household, and that all of them were baptized. They were all Christian believers and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius serves as a wonderful example of how God was saving, not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well.

So what is the up shot of this passage and how does it apply to the discussion? Cornelius never gave up his household and was never asked to do so. I can give many other examples as to the truth in this matter and how your interpretation is too narrow and taken out of the proper context of the Book of Acts. If need be, I will supply the extra biblical data.

I hope this helps.

Pax, Help! All you are doing is finding more excuses that water down what Jesus had for his people. You don’t seem to be looking for how to live the Word of God, but how little you need to do to live the Word of God.
Giver

 

[deb1]

Giver:

Pax, Help! All you are doing is finding more excuses that water down what Jesus had for his people. You don’t seem to be looking for how to live the Word of God, but how little you need to do to live the Word of God.
Giver

I was just curious. You have been asked on other threads what your specific beliefs were but you never answered. Have you given up your goods and do you live in a commune?

 

[deb1]

MikeinSD:

This issue – can one sin with money – has come up in other threads. The posters seem to agree that people cannot sin with their wallets. And the biblical cites you posted are “non-operative” because they interfere with a free enterprise market economy. Religion is all well and good but money is money.

My history with cold hard cash was a good investment with some (devout Christian) relatives. We would buy up distressed residential properties with poorly peforming mortgages. Then lobby the county or state governments to re-zone for commercial use. Of course the right amnt of cash in the right hands worked wonders. Once the re-zone passed, evict the people from their homes. This was mostly in the south and in exclusively black neighborhoods. Resell the properties. Got a 14% return. Not a bad investment. Obviously Christianity has nothing to with it. And why should it? This is the market at work.

Christian morals apply to a Christian even in a freemarket enterprise.

 

[Eireann]

(Acts 2:44-45) “The faithful all lived together and owned everything in common; they sold their goods and possessions and shared out the proceeds among themselves according to what each one needed.”

**
Sold ** being the operative word, they obviously had needs too, as it says so up above.
**
Doesn’t seem like they give away freely**, well not everything.

Giver, why wern’t the goods given away freely expecting nothing in return ?

From the underlined in Acts, it is obvious they still owned posessions.

Giver, what were the proceeds of the sale, was it more posessions like a barter system, or was it money they aquired ?

 

[Giver]

**
Sold ** being the operative word, they obviously had needs too, as it says so up above.
**
Doesn’t seem like they give away freely**, well not everything.

Giver, why wern’t the goods given away freely expecting nothing in return ?

From the underlined in Acts, it is obvious they still owned posessions.

Giver, what were the proceeds of the sale, was it more posessions like a barter system, or was it money they aquired ?

Maybe this passage will help you understand. (Acts 4:32-35) “The whole group of believers was united, heart and soul; no one claimed for his own use anything that he had, as everything they owned was held in common. The apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus with great power, and they were all given great respect.

None of their members was ever in want, as all those who owned land or houses would sell them, and bring the money from them, to present it to the apostles; it was then distributed to any members who might be in need.”

 

[Church_Militant]

So now Robert, you are telling us that our works are important to our salvation? This rejects the doctrine of salvation by faith alone (Sola Fide) does it not?

But you cannot pick and choose which passages of the Word of God we are to obey as you have done here. Many, many times we Catholics have discussed this with non-Catholics and pointed out passages like Matthew 25:31-46, which clearly shows that our works are integral to salvation. So which is it now Robert?

Does your church own a building? Does your pastor have his own house and car and clothes?

You’ve been shown that what you preach is not in line with the Word of God again and again.

Explain to us how you are the example of all this and how you are not heaping burdens on us Catholics that you yourself will not lift a finger to bear.
Pax tecum,

 

[deb1]

Giver:

Maybe this passage will help you understand. (Acts 4:32-35) “The whole group of believers was united, heart and soul; no one claimed for his own use anything that he had, as everything they owned was held in common. The apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus with great power, and they were all given great respect.

None of their members was ever in want, as all those who owned land or houses would sell them, and bring the money from them, to present it to the apostles; it was then distributed to any members who might be in need.”

Again, have you sold your goods and live in a commune with other Christians?

 

[Giver]

Church Militant:

So now Robert, you are telling us that our works are important to our salvation? This rejects the doctrine of salvation by faith alone (Sola Fide) does it not?

But you cannot pick and choose which passages of the Word of God we are to obey as you have done here. Many, many times we Catholics have discussed this with non-Catholics and pointed out passages like Matthew 25:31-46, which clearly shows that our works are integral to salvation. So which is it now Robert?

Does your church own a building? Does your pastor have his own house and car and clothes?

You’ve been shown that what you preach is not in line with the Word of God again and again.

Explain to us how you are the example of all this and how you are not heaping burdens on us Catholics that you yourself will not lift a finger to bear.
Pax tecum,

I have faith and also works. Out of faith comes good works. I believe Jesus is God and the Bible is his Word. If I don’t have a clear understanding of God’s Word I ask him. Also he lets me know when I’m not doing good works up to what he would have me to do.

The word of God may be your burden and Jesus said it would be light. He gives grace to carry his burden.
Giver

 

[Mickey]

Giver:

I believe Jesus is God and the Bible is his Word.

Jesus **is **the Word made flesh.