John 17:9

[ajcstr]

“9
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours
10
and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them.
11
And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.
12
When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

Is this a quote used to support predestination (Catholic or otherwise) ? Or is Jesus talking about the Apostles?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I think Jesus is primarily talking about the Twelve, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the passage does not connect to predestination. It seems to me an argument could be made connecting this to a kind of predestination, but it’s complicated.

Jesus makes clear that those who have come to Him (esp. the Twelve) were given to Him by the Father. It’s unclear to me whether this is in a historical-predestinatarian sense or simply because everything the Son has comes from the Father.

Even if we take it in a predestinatarian sense, though, the matter of being given these individuals seems to be primarily focused on the fact of initially coming to grace. The one who is lost has already been given to Christ by the Father, but has fallen away. Thus even a predestinatarian view of the passage would need to differentiate between being predestined to come to Christ in the first place and on the other hand being predestined to remain in Christ.

From a Catholic perspective, we would not say that Judas Iscariot was predestined to fall away, but simply that he was not predestined to persevere and instead was allowed to fall away. It’s an important distinction in how we speak because to say God predestined someone to evil could seem to suggest God has ordained evil as a good in itself and perhaps even directly caused it, whereas we know God only permits evil, for His own good reasons (i.e. “in order that scripture may be fulfilled”).

 

[campeador]

Calmet’s interpretation of verse 9:

The prayer I now offer up to thee, O my Father, is all in behalf of my disciples, it is not for the world. I pray not now for the incredulous Jews, nor for such of the Gentiles as shall afterwards believe in me; for them I will pray at another time. At present I speak to thee for my apostles only: they call for my first care, because they are thine, and thou has given them to me.

 

[svid2]

The apostles. That’s what I’ve always understood.

 

[PJM]

=ajcstr;8136783]" John 17: 9-12 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them.And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.
When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Is this a quote used to support predestination (Catholic or otherwise) ? Or is Jesus talking about the Apostles?

Jesus is talking precisely to the Apostles in verses 15-19 then adds ALL of us in verse 20.

15 "do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. **And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. ** [20] "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word

Some certainly attempt too Predestination is a Satanic MYTH created my Mortal Men to make there version of salvation easier than the REALITY of what God will accept.

Predestination is a MYTH because it abuses God’s Divine Word and Promise, and design of humanity… And it VOIDS the Spiritual Gifts given ONLY to humanity precisely that we MIGHT [freely chose] to Know, Love, and serve God. ONLY humanity has what is needed in-order to love: a Mind, an Intellect, a Freewill all connnected to our souls. TRY to quantify for me your “FREEWILL.” What color is it, whats is shape, size and weight? Can’t be done because these Spiritual THINGS are how we are made in Gods image.[Gen. 1:26-27] Isaiah 43: 7, 21 are precise in informing us why God Created us: To “FREELY” chose to; or NOT TO, Love God.

Heres additional proof: **Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

**John 3:5 ** “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

There are many factors; MANY demands in order to get to heaven beyond Faith which is essential BUT ONLY the First step!

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[Telstar]

At that point in time, I think He was talking about the Apostles and Disciples, but He was also praying for all who would follow Him throughout the ages. ‘Predestination’ is a crock. What most people that believe in it fail to understand is that there is absolutely no concept of time in Heaven. God is not limited by it except when the earth and things of this world are considered. But, He has known every single minute detail of the world, since the beginning of creation. That’s how He knows what will happen before it happens. That’s how prophecies are given to mankind, so far in advance, by Him. He already knows everyone who will be saved, and who will be lost, but every individual still holds his fate in his own hands. God does not set anyone up to fall from grace. Everyone has free will, with no exceptions. Even Judas made his own decision to betray Jesus, and God knew it would happen from the beginning of creation. It might be hard for us to wrap our minds around, but it’s a fact.