John 20:23 (Again and again)

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PeVee said:
Goes to show how the protestants have to twist the scriptures to make it fit their anti-Catholic bias.

“I give to you Peter…” How does that mean that it was given to anyone but Peter. It doesn’t say all believers, all apostles, all Christians or to whom it may concern. Only someone who doesn’t read the words but is out to find an anti-Catholic interpretation can say the keys were given to anyone but Peter.

“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Jesus is speaking to the apostles alone. They will have to hear the sin before they decide to forgive or retain the sin. So sins must be confessed to men.

Trying to find a decent protestant explaination is going to be hard. You could find 30,000 different explainations and all of them different, but they intend on being non or anti-Catholic rather than being a correct interpretation of the Bible in context.
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Thats what I dont like about most protestant churches, they mess up their faith and scripture interperatation out of their zeal and hatred for the Catholic Church… One protestant that I was in a debate with went so far as to say that the Catholic Church HAD NOTHING to do with the canonization and chosing of scripture in the bible…

And then they go on to matthew 16… with the Petra and Petros arguement, that one is femenine and the other not… Except that Jesus spoke Aramiac and there is only one word for rock, which is Kepha… Its a riot how far protestants will twist the scripture just out of their bias zeal against the CC… It clouds their judgement…
 
Pixie_Dust said:
I didn’t mean to debate, my post was intended to show you (and subsequently your pastor if you care to pass along the information) that the Bible does provide evidence of apostolic authority and succession. If you took it as debate, I apologize. It’s my Inner Fundamentalist that enjoys reading/studying Scripture and sharing what I’ve learned.

In all honesty, a year ago I would have been in the “that authority ended with the death of the last apostle” camp right along with you and your pastor. God has brought me a long way in a very short time. I’m still :hypno: reeling from the ride! 😃
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Thank you for your response. My minister told me to let him know how it goes.👍 Im sure he could give me the long version, but Im afraid it would probably come out wrong on my part:o

Thank you for sharing. I too love to study the bible and sharing what I have learned. For me, it is easier to share with people who are open to listening rather then debunking. Im sure you understand what I mean. Im not versed enough in the bible to debate yet;) 😃
 
Curious said:
John 6 certainly isn’t much fun right now. Were you anticipating I would say that? I’m here all the time - enough to know what a hot topic that is. Enough to know that I don’t know anymore how symbolic communion is. Transub is quite a leap for me.

this is my body…
this is a hard saying…
this is my blood…

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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I recommend that you don’t try to get your “head” around it. some of the mysteries are just meant to be accepted outright, and not understood. Like “I and the Father are One” for instance. Trying to figure out the Holy Trinity mentally is really beyond our puny minds. I think it also helps to relate this to Genesis. During creation, God said it, and it was so. “Let there be light”. “Let the waters be separated” etc. If He can do that, then what is a little transubtantiation?

We know that He did not give his “symbolic” flesh on the cross. It was His real body and blood suffering. Therefore, the elements cannot be “symbolic”. Just my 2 cents.
 
I heard someone say the other day:
“Christ couldn’t have just offered up Bread and Wine at the Last Supper. That had already been done before!!! Melchizedeck had performed that schtick 2000 years earlier!”
 
I hope some of you don’t mind but I copied & pasted some of the responses (Randy & Pixie Dust for starters) for future reference. There’s some really good stuff there.

I wanted to let you know so no one sues me for copyright infringement!:tsktsk: 😉

BTW Curious, I also like this one::doh2: as well as :banghead:
Now if some one had a :newidea: kind of answer:D
 
“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar…”

“For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, the man CHRIST JESUS.”

John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.”

1st John 2:1, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous:

John 1:29, “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

Christ declared to Israel that He was their Messiah (John 1:41), Saviour (Luke 2:11), Sin-bearer (Matthew 1:21), and King (Matthew 2:2); but the religious leaders wanted nothing to do with Him. In Hebrews 2:3,4 the Word of God declares,

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them (Israel) witness, both with SIGNS AND WONDERS, and with DIVERS MIRACLES, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”

In Matthew 9:1-8 Christ had healed a man sick of palsy (a paralytic) as proof that He had the power to forgive sins also. Anyone can say, I will forgive your sins, but the miracle of healing was “proof positive” that He was truly the Son of God! In Matthew 10:8, this power of healing and other miracles would also be given to the Twelve Apostles, and to The Seventy in Luke 10. As we are going to see from Scriptures, no human being was ever given the power to forgive sins. The message of the Twelve Apostles was that Christ was to bear our sin on the cross, and by the power given to them to perform miracles their message was substantiated as authentic. In Matthew 10 they were to go ONLY to the nation of Israel. In verses 6 and 7…

“…go, rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND.”
 
The power given them is recorded in verse 8…

“Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils (demons): freely ye have received, freely give.”

Nowhere in Matthew, Chapter 10, do you find they were given power to forgive anyone’s sins. Their message and commission was to preach that…“the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

The reason the Kingdom was “at hand”–the King was here. When any Jew believed this message their sins were forgiven. Matthew earlier stated in 1:21 that…

“He (Christ) shall save his people from their sins.”
The Seventy in Luke 10 were given the same power to perform miracles (verses 9,17,19,20). Notice carefully, as you read Luke 10, NOWHERE do you find the Seventy being given the power to forgive sins. Their message to their own nation was that Jesus Christ was their Saviour and Messiah. “Dr. Luke” stated earlier in Luke 2:11,

“For unto you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOUR, WHICH IS CHRIST THE LORD.”
 
Nowhere in Matthew, Chapter 10, do you find they were given power to forgive anyone’s sins. Their message and commission was to preach that…“the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
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Yeah I know. The power to forgive sins was given to the apostles in John 20:23, not Matthew or Luke.

Unless you have an alternative meaning to John 20:23? One that is not

[sign]A Big Stretch!![/sign]

I’d love to hear it.
 
truthnlight said:
The power given them is recorded in verse 8…

“Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils (demons): freely ye have received, freely give.”

Nowhere in Matthew, Chapter 10, do you find they were given power to forgive anyone’s sins. Their message and commission was to preach that…“the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

The reason the Kingdom was “at hand”–the King was here. When any Jew believed this message their sins were forgiven. Matthew earlier stated in 1:21 that…

“He (Christ) shall save his people from their sins.”
The Seventy in Luke 10 were given the same power to perform miracles (verses 9,17,19,20). Notice carefully, as you read Luke 10, NOWHERE do you find the Seventy being given the power to forgive sins. Their message to their own nation was that Jesus Christ was their Saviour and Messiah. “Dr. Luke” stated earlier in Luke 2:11,

“For unto you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOUR, WHICH IS CHRIST THE LORD.”
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What is your point?!?

Unless Matthew 10:7 says, “Here be all the powers that I have given thee, and they are…”, you are trying to pull something out of thin air. BTW, I checked. Matthew 10:7 does not say that.

And again, Why does Jesus give the Apostles (In John 20) the authority to rescind what Christ has forgiven?
 
ALLFORHIM said:
OK here it is–DRUMROLL PLEASE:p

Im not sure what your criteria for a reasonable protestant answer is but here is what my senior pastor told me:👍

The Disciples were given the authority to forgive or not forgive sins by Jesus Christ for at least short time. This was given to them to help build the church from its infancy(Acts 2–the infancy of the church). And then the authority was given to the church(body of believers/priesthood of believers/ universal(small c)catholic church)for the soul purpose of church discipline. Ministers/bishpos/priests did not have the power to really actually absolve(that was God’s alone) but they do have the power to declare what has already been done(meaning what Christ did on the cross)

After the church was founded(Pentacost) we dont see the disciples using the power anymore but the church(body of believers) is now using the power. In Acts 15 is where you start to see the church(body of believers) starting to take over .

Now I know this sounds very catholic and that is because we believe we all started out believing the same thing and well we all know things went down hill from there.😦

Now I know there are many many theological split offs from here, but he asked me if I wanted the long or short version and I said the short version:D

I hope that was a sound protestant answer for you. 🤷 😃
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Well, thank you my friend. This is indeed the best explanation that I have received and you are very cordial in your response. I wonder why they would choose Matthias as a replacement for Judas if Apostolic succession was not in order. I don’t need to go into the Catholic theology concerning this as you’ve probably heard it already. I also could never figure out how a Protestant minister knows that His particular interpretation is correct when they are so diverse. But that’s another topic. Tell your pastor thank you and may God bless you always…teachccd:)

P.S. Incidentally, I’m going to nab this answer and file it for future reference as it acknowledges the passing on of authority (given the time limit) which many Protestants deny. thanks again…👍
 
Curious said:
Thanks for the reply, ALLFORHIM. 🙂 Your efforts to answer this puzzling question are appreciated.

It wasn’t the Big Stretch I was expecting. It was, in fact, a completely different Big Stretch that I’d never heard of, so it was sort of refreshing.

But come now…the disciples were given the power to forgive *for a short time?? *Exactly what point did this power go away? What evidence is there that this power was only for a short time? And who initially came up with that interpretation I wonder?

I realize that I’m kinda just firing questions out, and I realize that you consulted your pastor and got the short version and may not completely know the entire background behind this answer…but what do you think? And about what Randy posted too?
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Yea, Curious, I agree but I went easy on ALLFORHIM because he tried so hard. But that’s why I’m Catholic because I could never accept the splintering and not knowing who’s interpretation to believe. Catholicism offers 2000 years of unity and so John 20:23 means exactly what the Church has said it is for 2000 years. When people come into the Catholic Church and receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation they very quickly understand why God would leave behind this most precious gift next to the Eucharist. God Bless…I will talk to you real soon…teachccd:)
 
Catholic literature describing Penance. The following quotes are from the Father Connell’s Confraternity Edition, New Baltimore Catechism.

“Penance is also a sacrament instituted by Our Divine Savior in which sins committed after Baptism are forgiven through the absolution of the Priest.”

“The Priest has the power to forgive sins from Jesus Christ, who said to His Apostles and to their successors in the priesthood: 'Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are attained.” (John 20:22,23).

“No man, by his own power and authority, could possibly forgive sins. Only God can do that because sin is an offence against Him. BUT the priest, as God’s representative, can forgive sins because God has given him the power to do so.” (Matthew 18:15-18).

“Our Savior could indeed have decreed that men should receive the Pardon of their sins by going directly to God with contrition. BUT a sacrament, administered by men in the name of God, IS A MORE ASSURING AND A MORE EFFECTIVE MEANS.”

“The power to forgive sins by pronouncing these words of absolution is given to the priest at his ordination. In order to exercise this power the priest must have jurisdiction, or be authorized to ACT AS A SPIRITUAL JUDGE OVER THE PERSONS HE ABSOLVES.”

THE PRIEST FORGIVES SINS WITH THE WORDS: “I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the the Holy Ghost, Amen.”
 
One might notice under “b.” that the Catholic Church acknowledges that no man has the power to forgive sins, but God only; they then transfer that power to their priests. The following Scriptures are used to support their position:
 
Matthew 9:5-8,

“For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, WHICH HAD GIVEN SUCH POWER UNTO MEN.”

Matthew 18:15-18,

“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, WHATSOEVER YE SHALL BIND ON EARTH SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN: AND WHATSOEVER YE SHALL LOOSE ON EARTH SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN.”

John 20:21-23,

“Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”

Matthew 16:19,

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
 
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