John 20:23 (Again and again)

[truthnlight]

The same guarantee of God backing up His Word from Heaven, is in Christ’s Words to Peter in Matthew 16:19…

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Greek New Testament Words has this to say in reference to the Word “bind”:

“The Lord’s Words to the Apostle Peter in Matthew 16:19 as to binding, and to all the disciples in 18:18 signify, in the former case, that the Apostle, by his ministry of the Word of life, would keep unbelievers outside the kingdom of God; and admit those who believed.”

The “keys” spoken of in Matthew 16:19 were first used by Peter on the day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2. Nowhere did Peter or the Eleven ever even HINT that they could or would forgive anyone’s sins! The whole chapter is a testimony concerning Christ, the resurrection and His forgiveness. Here are Peter’s words in verse 21…

" And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)

They were saved because of the Word of God Peter preached. They were then baptized as a public testimony of their faith. Notice Peter’s Words in Acts 2:41…

“Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about 3,000 souls.”

Peter used the “keys” (symbolic of God’s Word) again in Acts 10. God sent Peter to the Gentile named Cornelius, to show the Jews that the Gentiles could be saved also. Read Chapter 10 and nowhere do you find Peter EVER claiming the power to forgive anyone’s sins. Peter directed the lost to Christ and Him alone. Here are Peter’s Words in Acts 10:43…

“To him (Christ) give all the prophets witness, that through his (Christ’s) name whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM (Christ) SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS.”

Unlike Peter, some clergy, through pride, love to claim this power for themselves and love to mediate between God and man. In doing so they outright deny and resist God’s Word. 1st Timothy blatantly declares in 2:5…

“For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, the man CHRIST JESUS.”

When God’s servants preach His Word on earth, it will divide–those who believe it are saved and, those who do not are lost. His Word is so powerful it will divide as a sharp. two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12). Isaiah 55:11 declares that His Word will not return unto Him void and empty. Those in Matthew 16:10 that are bound on earth are those who have believed the Word and are saved. They have the promises of the omniscient and omnipotent God, that in Heaven He will make good the promises that He gave on earth. The same goes for those who reject God’s Word (John 3:36). Even though many do not believe in Christ, the Word of God or Hell, it will not alter God’s faithfulness to His Word when He pronounces their end sentence in Matthew 25:41…

 

[Randy_Carson]

I hope some of you don’t mind but I copied & pasted some of the responses (Randy & Pixie Dust for starters) for future reference. There’s some really good stuff there.

I wanted to let you know so no one sues me for copyright infringement!

Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

:tiphat:

 

[holy_wood]

Hi people,
I have been following everyones postings since the start of the thread but never felt the need to respond.

But reading your post I have a quick question…

Is absolving sin and forgiving sin the same thing?

Correct me if I’m wrong but I was always taught that since we are part of the body of Christ that whenever we sin we also sin against his body. For this reason we must go to the Church (His visible body) and ask for forgiveness.

I was watching EWTN’s “What Catholics really believe” and the host said that in the early Church that confession was alot harder. If you committed Apostacy, Adultery or Fornication that you would be kicked out (cut off from the body) for you were damaging Christ body and causing scandal in the Church. And that if you were sorry the process for reconciliation was long and a one time offer only. If you mess up again then you were done.

Do Protestants believe in this also? I mean do they believe that a sin against God is also a sin against his Church and since you only become a member of his body/Church through his Church (i.e. baptism) that you must go through his Church to reunite with it?

I have heard the argument that since you confess to God you do not have to confess to his Church but I always respond with…"If I sin against my wife (my sister in Christ Jesus) does that mean that I am free to not ask for her forgiveness as well.

 

[truthnlight]

Hi people,
I have been following everyones postings since the start of the thread but never felt the need to respond.

But reading your post I have a quick question…

Is absolving sin and forgiving sin the same thing?

Correct me if I’m wrong but I was always taught that since we are part of the body of Christ that whenever we sin we also sin against his body. For this reason we must go to the Church (His visible body) and ask for forgiveness.

I was watching EWTN’s “What Catholics really believe” and the host said that in the early Church that confession was alot harder. If you committed Apostacy, Adultery or Fornication that you would be kicked out (cut off from the body) for you were damaging Christ body and causing scandal in the Church. And that if you were sorry the process for reconciliation was long and a one time offer only. If you mess up again then you were done.

Do Protestants believe in this also? I mean do they believe that a sin against God is also a sin against his Church and since you only become a member of his body/Church through his Church (i.e. baptism) that you must go through his Church to reunite with it?

I have heard the argument that since you confess to God you do not have to confess to his Church but I always respond with…"If I sin against my wife (my sister in Christ Jesus) does that mean that I am free to not ask for her forgiveness as well.

Isaiah043:010 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
043:011 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
044:006 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
044:007 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
044:008 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
:bible1:

 

[NotWorthy]

Holy Wood,

I think what Truthnlight is trying to tell you is to search the Scriptures. And, of course, if you search the Scriptures, you’ll understand that Christ set up a Church to continue His work in His absence. Christ knew that we would need forgiveness for our sins, so he gave authority to men to forgive our sins - to act “Persona Christi” is how the Church puts it (in the person of Christ).

It’s pretty simply after all!!!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I hope some of you don’t mind but I copied & pasted some of the responses (Randy & Pixie Dust for starters) for future reference. There’s some really good stuff there.

I wanted to let you know so no one sues me for copyright infringement!:tsktsk:

Most of my post is notes that I took listening to John Martignoni’s (Pres. of the Bible Christian Society) Apostolic Authority CD. I’ve posted a lot of those notes on my blog and I have John’s assurance that HE will not sue ME for plagiarism.

You’re certainly welcome to use any of it, but I highly recommend you either order the CD or download the MP3 yourself and hear the whole thing. I had to edit a lot of it to make it fit into one post.

 

[MariaG]

Catholic literature describing Penance. The following quotes are from the Father Connell’s Confraternity Edition, New Baltimore Catechism.

“Penance is also a sacrament instituted by Our Divine Savior in which sins committed after Baptism are forgiven through the absolution of the Priest.”

“The Priest has the power to forgive sins from Jesus Christ, who said to His Apostles and to their successors in the priesthood: 'Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are attained.” (John 20:22,23).

“No man, by his own power and authority, could possibly forgive sins. Only God can do that because sin is an offence against Him. BUT the priest, as God’s representative, can forgive sins because God has given him the power to do so.” (Matthew 18:15-18).

“Our Savior could indeed have decreed that men should receive the Pardon of their sins by going directly to God with contrition. BUT a sacrament, administered by men in the name of God, IS A MORE ASSURING AND A MORE EFFECTIVE MEANS.”

“The power to forgive sins by pronouncing these words of absolution is given to the priest at his ordination. In order to exercise this power the priest must have jurisdiction, or be authorized to ACT AS A SPIRITUAL JUDGE OVER THE PERSONS HE ABSOLVES.”

THE PRIEST FORGIVES SINS WITH THE WORDS: “I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the the Holy Ghost, Amen.”

Okay, you have now presented the scripture and Catholic beliefs.

You also have bolded several areas but seemingly and further post things but don’t seem to understand what they mean. The priest should have probably used the longhand since you seem to have forgotten what he just taught previously, and that is that The priest forgives sins, by the authority given to him by God. Or in other words, God forgives the sins of men through the priest. Only God forgives sin. This is the teaching and understanding of the Catholic church.

One might notice under “b.” that the Catholic Church acknowledges that no man has the power to forgive sins, but God only; they then transfer that power to their priests. The following Scriptures are used to support their position:

You clearly are not following basic logic. Faith does not demand we do not use basic logic and reason.

Can God heal people? If a man lays his hands on another and the man is healed, who healed the man? Is saying that the man has a gift of healing, in anyway invalidate that we understand that the power of the gift, the power to heal comes from God?

:bible1: John 20:21-23
21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The beautiful thing is there are exactly two places in scripture where God breathes on man. The first is in Genesis where God breathed the breath of life, his soul into man. The second is where Jesus breathed on man and gave us the gift of reconcilliation for cleansing our souls.

 

[guanophore]

What would a person do if a priest just refused to grant absolution for no reason? I mean, I bet that rarely ever happens, but if it does…what does that mean? What does a person do?

Repentance would be good. If the person corrects the problem, and stops sinning,then absolution will be given.

 

[MariaG]

Repentance would be good. If the person corrects the problem, and stops sinning,then absolution will be given.

I think the question is more along the lines of what happens if the priest INAPPROPRIATELY withholds absolution. That is, the person is properly repentant, but the priest is either not assessing the situation correctly or is just going nuts.

In that case, one could go to a new priest, tell them of the aborted confession, tell the sins, and recieve absolution from another priest. And then report the abuse to the proper authorities of the Church.

I don’t know what could be done to discipline the erring priest though:shrug: