John 20 and the Shroud

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. . .materials of the time of Da Vinci (who is the likely hoaxer) was clearly demonstrated. . . .
That name comes from the book The Da Vinci Code.

Leonardo was from Vinci, his name was never Da Vinci.

Leonardo Da Vinci:

Born the illegitimate son of a notary, Piero da Vinci, and a peasant woman, Caterina, at Vinci in the region of Florence, Leonardo was educated in the studio of the renowned Florentine painter, Verrocchio.

ask.com/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci

As to whether the shroud is real or fake doesn’t concern me or my faith. It is much more real than Medjugorje though.
 
That name comes from the book The Da Vinci Code.

Leonardo was from Vinci, his name was never Da Vinci.

Leonardo Da Vinci:

Born the illegitimate son of a notary, Piero da Vinci, and a peasant woman, Caterina, at Vinci in the region of Florence, Leonardo was educated in the studio of the renowned Florentine painter, Verrocchio.

ask.com/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci

As to whether the shroud is real or fake doesn’t concern me or my faith. It is much more real than Medjugorje though.
Why are you referring me to Wiki? Do you think I don’t know who Leonardo da Vinci was?
He is globally known as Leonardo da Vinci. I simply abbreviated that in my comment and certainly was not thinking about Dan Brown’s blasphemous book.

As for your last comments I agree. Something like this should have no bearing on anyone’s faith and yes I have the same opinion about Mejugorie! While I don’t believe the Shroud is genuine I am still open to being proved wrong. Mejugorie on the other hand is a definite out and out fraud.
 
Hello, After a careful reading of the account in John I believe you will find the scriptures explain there were two cloths. One was a head piece and the other for the body. The Shroud according to the Bible could not be the face of Jesus. The Shroud could be truly an imprint of a real person but it can not be Jesus. What do you think?
 
Hello, After a careful reading of the account in John I believe you will find the scriptures explain there were two cloths. One was a head piece and the other for the body. The Shroud according to the Bible could not be the face of Jesus. The Shroud could be truly an imprint of a real person but it can not be Jesus. What do you think?
As I recall the head piece is preserved in Spain and the image matches that on the shroud. Since we cannot explain how the image was created on the shroud, it is difficult to prove that it could not have been imprinted through the head piece.
 
One very interesting thing about the facial image on the shroud…it has a remarkable resemblance to the visual representation of Christ’s face as it has been portrayed throughout the history of Western art… even in early icons. Bear in mind that most of these images were done before there was any mass reproduction of images, and it is highly unlikely that any of these artists had seen the shroud !
 
Hello, After a careful reading of the account in John I believe you will find the scriptures explain there were two cloths. One was a head piece and the other for the body. The Shroud according to the Bible could not be the face of Jesus. The Shroud could be truly an imprint of a real person but it can not be Jesus. What do you think?
If “could not be” was a truism…there would be no faith called Christianity. If there were two cloths…a big if…both could have been over the face but if someone thinks that the mystery of the Shroud is going to be disproved…get in line with the legions of scientists who have tried and failed. The Shroud is the biggest forensic mystery of all time…fascinating and fortifying all at once…for believers.
 
That the image on the shroud represented Jesus is ridiculous, of course.

But how it was made is very interesting.

Just to address a point brought up by Patrick:

Lenses were probably very well known to the ancients. Galileo even hinted at that.

Evidence is scant, but let’s look at things logically.

Glass-making has been around for about three thousand years, at least. Now, in all that time, how many people noted that light tended to bend when seen through curved glass? And how many people might actually have EXPERIMENTED with different shapes of glass to investigate this phenomenon over the course of THREE THOUSAND YEARS?

The Middle East has a tradition of exquisite glass work.
In ancient times, there was no air pollution, and very little light pollution to obscure the night sky. The stars were probably twice as bright as they were today. Near the equator, the viewable night sky would take up at least nine solid hours a night. Even more important, Astrology was big in ancient times, even bigger than it is today. In fact, it was thought that the stars and planets were actually WINDOWS INTO HEAVEN ITSELF!! People studied the night sky with RELIGIOUS fervor.

Now, do you think that for the thousands of years that glass has been around prior to the times of Galileo, that someone, somewhere, picked up a curved piece of glass and looked through it at the night sky noted that the stars seemed brighter, or that the planets were actually planets? And is it remotely possible that they could have built on those observations to make rudimentary telescopes and other curved-glass dependent items?

Or is this a completely laughable postulation?
 
More for you, Pat…

“The credit of the discovery of the telescope has been a fruitful subject of discussion. Thus, because Democritus announced that the Milky Way is composed of vast multitudes of stars, it has been maintained that he could only have been led to form such an opinion from actual examination of the heavens with a telescope. Other passages from the Greek and Latin authors have similarly been cited to prove that the telescope was known to the ancients.” – Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911

Democritus was taught cosmology by Babylonian magi who practiced astronomy with the telescope.

“He [Democritus] was a pupil of some of the Magi and Chaldaeans, whom Xerxes had left with his father as teachers, when he had been hospitably received by him, as Herodotus [Metrodorus] informs us; and from these men he, while still a boy, learned the principles of astronomy and theology.” – Diogenes Laertius, historian, Life of Democritus, 3rd century

"STREPSIADES: Have you ever seen a beautiful, transparent stone at the druggists’, with which you may kindle fire?

SOCRATES: You mean a crystal lens.

STREPSIADES: That’s right. Well, now if I placed myself with this stone in the sun and a long way off from the clerk, while he was writing out the conviction, I could make all the wax, upon which the words were written, melt." – Aristophanes, playwright, The Clouds, 419 B.C.

“… sight is made precise by the compass, rule, and telescope.” – Iamblichus, philosopher, Life of Pythagoras, 3rd century

“If this steel mirror [the Pharos of Alexandria] did really exist we cannot refuse to the ancients the glory of the first invention [of the telescope], for this mirror can be only effected by as much as the light reflected by its surface was collected by another concave mirror placed at its focus, and in this consists the essence of the telescope and the merit of its construction.” – Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon, historian, Natural History, 1749–88

“There is said to be distinct evidence that they [Babylonians] observed the four satellites of Jupiter, and strong reason to believe that they were acquainted likewise with the seven satellites of Saturn. … strange as it may seem to us … the Babylonians possessed optical instruments of the nature of telescopes, since it is impossible, even in the clear and vapor-less sky of Chaldaea, to discern the faint moons of that distant planet [Saturn] without lenses. A lens, it must be remembered, with a fair magnifying power, has been discovered amongst the Mesopotamian ruins.” – George Rawlinson, historian, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Eastern World, Volume 4: Babylon, 1862-67

“Some modern writers deny the fact that a great mirror was placed in the light-house of the Alexandrian port for the purpose of discovering vessels at a distance at sea. But the renowned [French historian] Buffon believed in it; for he honestly confesses that ‘If the mirror really existed, as I firmly believe it did, to the ancients belong the honor of the invention of the telescope.’” – Helena P. Blavatsky, theosophist, Isis Unveiled, 1877

“The credit of the discovery of the telescope has been a fruitful subject of discussion. Thus, because Democritus announced that the Milky Way is composed of vast multitudes of stars, it has been maintained that he could only have been led to form such an opinion from actual examination of the heavens with a telescope. Other passages from the Greek and Latin authors have similarly been cited to prove that the telescope was known to the ancients.” – Encyclopaedia Britannica 1888, 1893, & 1911

“The Chaldeans must have understood the manufacture of the telescope, for [Austen H.] Layard reported the discovery of a lens of power in the ruins of Babylon. Nero the emperor of Rome had optical glasses from the east.” – Drusilla D. Houston, historian, Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire, Chapter XIII: The Civilization of Babylonia, 1926

“Galileo always insisted that the ancients had telescopes.” – Ivan Van Sertima, historian, Blacks In Science: Ancient and Modern, The Lost Sciences of Africa: An Overview, 1983

“It is a short and simple step to place one lens in front of another to make a telescope, and the chances are it could have happened and many times.” – Hunter H. Adams III, archaeoastronomer, African Observers of the Universe: The Sirius Question, 1983

“I have discovered [sic] an avalanche of evidence proving the existence of a very remarkable ancient technology, one which is well and truly forbidden because it indicates that our ancestors were not idiots, and as we all know very well, if we ever admitted that, the illusion of progress would be seriously imperiled. The technology I have discovered [sic] is optical.” – Robert G. K. Temple, author, Forbidden Technology, 2009

“I call it consensus blindness. People agree not to see what they are convinced cannot exist. ‘Everyone knows’ that there was no optical technology in antiquity, so consequently when you come across it, staring you in the face, you go blind. End of conflict.” – Robert G. K. Temple, author, Forbidden Technology, 2009

“The ancients apparently used the telescope long before Pythagoras’s time.” – Larry B. Radka, historian, Telescopes and the Ancients, 2010
 
That is not relevant. The OP is talking about its authenticy and seems to be implying that the Church has said its authentic. The Church has not made any statement about its authenticity, i.e. the Church has not declared it to be authentic.

People are free to believe it to be real or not.

There is overwhelming evidence to support it being a medieval hoax.
There is zero evidence to support it being the burial cloth of Christ.

(and yes I have books on the Shroud, read the articles on Shroud websites, have several dvd’s about the Shroud and watched the tv documentaries on the Shroud)

There is no doubt in my mind the image was made by a camera obscura.
Just curious… Why spend so much time [and money] looking into these things when it has absolutely no bearing on one’s faith or salvation?
 
Just curious… Why spend so much time [and money] looking into these things when it has absolutely no bearing on one’s faith or salvation?
You are curious as to why anyone would be “looking into these things”…and I am curious about why anyone would NOT be interested. How that image was affixed to a possible burial cloth is an important archeological question and archeology is certainly a worthy scientific pursuit. We Catholics have a history of clinging to things connected to the life of our Savior and the saints…a little like some people want to keep their babies shoes and locks of hair and photos…things that have no bearing on one’s salvation or faith but are treasured never the less.🤷
 
You are curious as to why anyone would be “looking into these things”…and I am curious about why anyone would NOT be interested. How that image was affixed to a possible burial cloth is an important archeological question and archeology is certainly a worthy scientific pursuit. We Catholics have a history of clinging to things connected to the life of our Savior and the saints…a little like some people want to keep their babies shoes and locks of hair and photos…things that have no bearing on one’s salvation or faith but are treasured never the less.🤷
You need to address your query to thistle. Mine was directed to him. He’s not interested in anything that does not have a bearing on his salvation so I was wondering why the shroud has engrossed his mind.
 
Hello, After a careful reading of the account in John I believe you will find the scriptures explain there were two cloths. One was a head piece and the other for the body. The Shroud according to the Bible could not be the face of Jesus. The Shroud could be truly an imprint of a real person but it can not be Jesus. What do you think?
Let’s first check this one.

The Synoptics (Matthew, Mark and Luke) all say that there was a sindon, in the singular.

And evening having come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also himself was discipled to Jesus. He, having gone near to Pilate, asked for himself the body of Jesus; then Pilate commanded the body to be given. And having taken the body, Joseph wrapped it in a clean sindon and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn in the rock; and having rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, he went away. And there were there Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary, sitting opposite the burial.

And now evening having come, seeing it was the Preparation (that is, the fore-sabbath), Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council-member, who also himself was waiting for the kingdom of God, came, boldly entered in to Pilate, and asked the body of Jesus. And Pilate wondered if He were already dead; and having called near the centurion, asked Him if He were now dead, and having known from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. And he, having brought a sindon, and having taken Him down, wrapped Him in the sindon, and laid him in a tomb that had been hewn out of a rock, and he rolled a stone unto the door of the tomb. And Mary the Magdalene and Mary of Joses were seeing where He is laid.

And behold, a man named Joseph, a council-member, was a man good and righteous - he had not consented to their counsel and action - from Arimathea, a city of the Judeans, who also himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; he, having gone near to Pilate, asked the body of Jesus; and having taken it down, he wrapped it in a sindon and placed it in a tomb - stone-hewn, where no one was yet laid. And the day was Preparation, and Sabbath was dawning.

The problem of course is John’s account, which has Jesus being buried in othonia (‘linen cloths’ or ‘linen wrappings’), in the plural. By contrast, the word sindon does not appear in John. Ian Wilson wrote:

Here again we are in a hornets’ nest of controversy over gospel interpretation that exists quite independently of the Shroud. It all stems from apparent conflicts of information between the synoptic writers and St. John. The synoptics speak only of the sindon purchased by Joseph of Arimathea (Mt. 7:59; Mk. 15:46; Lk. 23:53) - This is often translated as shroud, although it should be pointed out that it does not have a specifically sepulchral meaning. St. Mark, for instance, used the same word to describe the garment lost by the young man at Gethsemane who fled at the arrest of Jesus (Mk. 14:51, 52). St. John, on the other hand, does not use the word sindon, but instead says the body of Jesus was wrapped in othonia. And in his account of the discovery of the linens in the empty tomb again he uses the word othonia (which he describes as lying at the scene), and refers also cryptically to a mysterious soudarion, rolled up and lying in a place by itself (Jn. 20: 7). The precise meanings of othonia and sindon in their gospel context have been hotly debated. Some have contended that othonia (which is a plural form) means linen bands and that Joseph must have torn up the sindon into strips to wind Jesus mummy-style. Quite neutral exegetes such as Pere Benoit have pointed out that it would surely have been easier for Joseph to purchase ready-made bandages rather than tearing up a large sheet for this purpose. The most balanced modern view is that othonia means cloths in general, which could incorporate shroud and bands.

What of the soudarion, literally a “sweat cloth”? Some have thought of this as simply the headcloth or chin band-which is clearly what the soudarion mentioned in the story of Lazarus as “round his face” (Jn. 11:44) was. Others have argued that it may have been our Shroud, on the grounds that the description of it as having been “over his head” (Jn. 20:7) could well refer to the manner in which we know the Turin Shroud was used. In support of this argument we may note that in the Lazarus account St. John uses the word peri (“round” or “about”), in contrast to epi (“over”), in the case of Jesus, leaving open the possibility that a different arrangement (and different size of cloth) is being described. St. John makes special mention of Jesus’ soudarion being “not with the othonia but rolled up in aplace by itself,” which certainly might suggest a cloth larger and more important than a mere chin hand; but as many maintain adamantly that a soudarion could not be anything larger than a handkerchief-sized piece of cloth, it seems unwise to be dogmatic.
 
That the image on the shroud represented Jesus is ridiculous, of course.
How so?
Lenses were probably very well known to the ancients. Galileo even hinted at that.
Evidence is scant, but let’s look at things logically.
Glass-making has been around for about three thousand years, at least. Now, in all that time, how many people noted that light tended to bend when seen through curved glass? And how many people might actually have EXPERIMENTED with different shapes of glass to investigate this phenomenon over the course of THREE THOUSAND YEARS?
The Middle East has a tradition of exquisite glass work.
In ancient times, there was no air pollution, and very little light pollution to obscure the night sky. The stars were probably twice as bright as they were today. Near the equator, the viewable night sky would take up at least nine solid hours a night. Even more important, Astrology was big in ancient times, even bigger than it is today. In fact, it was thought that the stars and planets were actually WINDOWS INTO HEAVEN ITSELF!! People studied the night sky with RELIGIOUS fervor.
Now, do you think that for the thousands of years that glass has been around prior to the times of Galileo, that someone, somewhere, picked up a curved piece of glass and looked through it at the night sky noted that the stars seemed brighter, or that the planets were actually planets? And is it remotely possible that they could have built on those observations to make rudimentary telescopes and other curved-glass dependent items?
Or is this a completely laughable postulation?
I do not deny that the very first lenses had already existed 3000 years ago; we have the Nimrud lens (proposed to be a sort of magnifying glass or burning-glass). Indeed lenses and their properties were known well before the invention of the optical telescope.

But I believe the question here is not so much about lenses and telescopes. 😉
 
You need to address your query to thistle. Mine was directed to him. He’s not interested in anything that does not have a bearing on his salvation so I was wondering why the shroud has engrossed his mind.
Well alrighty then…
 
How so?

I do not deny that the very first lenses had already existed 3000 years ago; we have the Nimrud lens (proposed to be a sort of magnifying glass or burning-glass). Indeed lenses and their properties were known well before the invention of the optical telescope.

But I believe the question here is not so much about lenses and telescopes. 😉
A sub-question was how they fraudulently make the shroud 900 or so years ago. Lenses would have come in handy. But just as they had lenses, they likely had all sorts of sophisticated stuff science-wise that we know little about.
 
A sub-question was how they fraudulently make the shroud 900 or so years ago. Lenses would have come in handy. But just as they had lenses, they likely had all sorts of sophisticated stuff science-wise that we know little about.
Even if we take the Shroud as some sort of photograph, there are still some puzzling things about it:

1.) The image itself. First of all, I would like to point out that the image itself seems to break many artistic conventions of Christian iconography of the period, which most artists quite religiously followed and whose boundaries they were reluctant to trangress. And by period, I mean the period during the late 12th century, based on that little picture found on a collection of Hungarian manuscripts (ca. 1192-95) which some take as evidence for the Shroud’s existence before Leonardo.

One, the man is totally naked. I personally never know of any depiction made on or before the 12th century that shows Jesus being totally nude during His Passion and burial, without the loincloth we are all familiar with or the long robe He sometimes wears in more early Eastern - and sometimes Western - depictions (if there is any, I would appreciate the reference). The only instance I can think of right off the top of my head where many early artists did not shy from showing a naked adult Savior is in His baptism, reflecting the earlier practice of baptizing people without their clothes - but even then, as time passed artists started showing that loincloth as well, which of coruse segued into those modern depictions which show Jesus as being fully clothed while being baptized.

Second - and the one most commonly pointed out - the image shows the hand wound on the wrist area, at a time when people painted Jesus as being nailed squarely in the palms (an artistic convention still alive today). And to top it all off, the spear wound is on the man’s left - when people would expect Jesus being pierced on His right side. I mean, that’s how the paintings and carvings show it, even today: the soldier stabbing Jesus and/or His spear wound is always on His right side. Never have I seen one from the period in question which shows it from the left.

Third - the man is totally covered with blood from head to foot. While images of a bleeding Jesus and a more greating emphasis to His suffering and death did gain some currency in the West starting from the late Middle Ages, early artists often liked to show a triumphant, bloodless Savior with nary a hint of agonizing torment. In fact, there were a few who condemned as novel ‘innovations’ depictions which show even an ounce of pain on the crucified Jesus. When Cardinal Humbert (the guy that laid the bull of excommunication on the altar of Hagia Sophia in 1054 while the Divine Liturgy was being held) came to Constantinople and saw how some depictions of the Crucfixion, he was shocked and reportedly exclaimed, “How do you come to fasten to Christ’s cross the picture of a dying man?” This of course added more fuel to the fire.
 
(continued)

So, all in all, the Shroud basically ‘fails’ as a relic in one sense, because it so goes against popularly-held conceptions and a millenium of traditional iconography. The artist who made it (supposing that there was one) must have had a lot of courage to greatly deviate from the accepted norms - I mean, a Jesus with the nail wound exiting from the wrist, pierced on His left side, with His buttocks showing? - and it’s even more amazing, in my humble opinion how he managed to pass it off as legitimate. If my memory serves me right, a lot of fake relics in the medieval period are frankly too simple that you can probably make one in your own backyard: you can dig up the part of someone’s femur and label it the anklebone of St. James, you can pick up a splinter and sell it as a piece of the True Cross. (Of course, nowadays, you have to watch for more scrutinizing folks as well as the possible charge of simony ;))

A guy who can manage to craft a fake so sophisticated and complicated that it will even puzzle scientists and researchers for centuries to come must have a lot of time in his hands. No forger has ever gone into such lengths as they did here. Of course we hear of people claiming they’ve found a way to make a facsimile of the Shroud, but their copies are only a weak shadow of the original: none, AFAIK, can fully duplicate many of the image’s respects that we know of.

One could of course make the case that the image must not be Jesus at all. But a new question arises: who else in history was killed in a way that their bodies were covered with scourge wounds, were wounded in their hands/wrists and feet, had their sides pierced, and had puncture injuries all over their heads? Yes, a lot of people were crucified for as long as the Roman Empire existed - sometimes there were as many as tens to hundreds being executed in a single day - and probably many of them were scourged, but what of the head wounds, which would suggest that our victim was pricked on the head by something (either multiple times or all at once)? In the case of Jesus of Nazareth, all these elements seem to fit: the scourging, a crown of thorns, the nails, the piercing of the side. Well, one could say that probably someone had a (really sick) idea to kill someone while precisely imitating the manner in which Jesus Christ died. But here another question would crop up: why? Who was it? What was the motivation? When did it happen? How did it occur? And I could go on answering them hypothetically, and further questions would arise - and so on and so forth.

We’ll now segue to number 2.

It is not obvious at first glance, but the bloodstains (as well as serum stains not visible to the naked eye) came first on the cloth. We know this because there is no image under the stains: these acted to inhibit the image formation mechanism. Second, another, more faint image - not exactly similar to the one on the other side for the record - is also present in the backside of the cloth (which is usually not visible because of the backing cloth sewn onto the Shroud).

http://www.shroudstory.com/glossary/back-source.jpg
Unfiltered image of backside

http://www.shroudstory.com/glossary/back-filtered-neg-histo.jpg
Image with the plaid background filtered out

When you look at the Shroud’s fabric you see that each thread is made up of hundreds of tiny fibers. These fibers are about 15 microns in diameter, a fraction if the thickness of human hair. These were handspun together to form the yarn used to weave the linen cloth.

The cloth has discolored with age which is a result of a chemical change of oxidation and dehydration of the fibers. Some fibers, however, appear darker in places along their length. This is how the image is formed: ehere darker bands intersect image areas, that part is darker. But it is not the fiber that has changed but a carbohydrate layer that coats the topmost fibers of the threads.

The discoloration is actually a chemical change to the carbohydrate coating, nominally about 180 to 600 nanometers thick. That is about the same thickness as the transparent and invisible scratch proof coating on eye glasses. It is not a colorant in the fiber nor on it. Now the darkened length of fibers are only on the topmost fibers and not on fibers below another fiber or under a blood stain. Had a liquid been applied to the fabric to create the image to it would have soaked through to lower fibers. Because there is no image below the blood stains, the blood must have been on the Shroud before the image was created, as we have mentioned before.
 
Just a couple of observations on one or two comments above, I apologise if my comments have already been made by somebody else.

Somebody commented about Pope John Paul II praying in front of the Shroud and implied that this indicated the Church thought the Shroud was genuine. Well, many of us go into Church on Sunday and pray in front of a representation of Jesus nailed to the cross - but we all know that this isn’t really Jesus on the Cross again, it’s just a representation. So of itself, Pope JPII’s actions aren’t proof positive that the Church thinks the Shroud in genuine, he was just doing what many of us do before a crucifix. (BTW, I hope the Shroud is genuine.)

With respect to the two cloths, the Shroud and the Sudarium (the face-cloth). Some people have suggested that when Jesus died, the face cloth was wrapped around His Face to absorb the Blood and other bodily fluids that came out of His nose and mouth after death. This was because Jewish people believed that the blood contained the life-force and couldn’t just be discarded, it had to be kept in thw case of violent death - blood-stained clothes would be buried with the body. In the tomb, this face-cloth was removed and Jesus was laid in the burial shroud.

One of the History Channel TV shows suggested that when Jesus rose, His body disappeared from “within” the shroud, leaving it collapsed but in the same arrangement it had when the Body was in it. They suggest that when Peter and John came to the tomb, they found the burial shroud collapsed in this way, with the face-cloth discarded to one side as it was on Good friday, and believed becasue they realised something abnormal or supernatural had happened.
 
History Channel?:rolleyes:
Yep, surprisingly enough, the History Channel went out-of-character last year and produced this show, praised by many as being ways better than your usual run-of-the-mill Shroud documentaries. One of the main interviewees was Barrie Schwortz, official documenting photographer for the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) in 1978 and the guy that runs The Shroud of Turin Website, which is probably what made it more awesome.
 
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