John 21:11. 153 fish. Father George Rutler comments on the meaning of 153 fish

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BartholomewB said:
Did you tell us what your answer is? I can’t see it anywhere on this thread.
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Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. You are correct I did not yet give the answer. If someone had told me the correct answer 5 years ago I would not have recognized and agreed with it. There is a certain context or base of information that we need to know to recognize the correct answer.

My goal here had been to show how we need to aim at arriving at the right and most productive questions that point us to the Correct context so that we might recognize the correct answer.

I gave above what I considered the correct or best questions rather than the questions , And the lines of thought, that are just time consuming and not productive.

But I see now that I need to address what I believe are the shortcomings , in regards to finding The original meaning John intended by the phrase 153 fish. in the approaches that have so far been considered, Before others will be interested in addressing what I had proposed to be the better questions to ask.
 
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Peter, Andrew, James and John were all career fishermen and would be able to cast an eye over a haul of fish and tell you how many there were. There have been many theories as to the significance of the 153, but it’s likely that John simply counted them.

A few years ago, the couple who had been running our RCIA programme since it started, retired. During their career, 153 people joined the Catholic Church. The later organisers have seen 49 conversions - another number of Biblical significance.
 
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Jesus also called them “fisher of men”, so there might be symbolism here.
 
Please some fisherman may help and state if fishermen can by glance count 153 big fishes hauled in a net.
I don’t think so.
 
BartholomewB said:
Augustine found that 153 is the sum of the first seventeen integers.
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Yes. The Different answers given by the church Fathers other than Jerome all involve some mathematical formula.

St. Augustine states that 17 represents the combination of divine grace (the 7 gifts of the Spirit) and law (the 10 Commandments.) And since 153 is the 17th triangular number 153 represents, according to St. Augustine, all those who will be saved and or the covenants by which they are saved

1 + 2 + 3 … + 17 = 153

Other formulas are also presented.

So, what knowledge would John be giving to his readers ?

In these cases, the answer would be nothing.

A reader would have to already know these theological truths to make or recognize the mathematical connections.

Therefore, John must have had something else in mind.

More later.

Dorian is coming?

John
 
irenaeuslyons said:
The 153 parts into which the Torah was divided in the cycle of three years
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Would it be safe to assume that this fact would have been so obvious to John’s Greek readers that he did not have to mention it ?

What would be the net evangelistic gain for John and his reader if this was John’s point?

The message that John is giving in this passage must lead to some conclusion that was not already obvious to the reader before such reader reads this Gospel.

The reference to “153 fish” and its context must convey some idea new to the reader. The reader must walk away from the Gospel enriched with some new idea that he did not hold before reading it.
 
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Would it be safe to assume that this fact would have been so obvious to John’s Greek readers that he did not have to mention it ?
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It may have been the case with Jews like Paul who studied in the Temple using a three year cycle of 153 parts, but probably quickly lost on others, especially the Gentiles and Jews who didn’t spend their time being taught in the Temple. The author of the famously cryptic Revelation was under no mandate to be transparent anymore than Jesus was with his parables, which the disciples could not interpret without asking at times.
What would be the net evangelistic gain for John and his reader if this was John’s point?
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My guess is that they cast their nets out for food, and got back a small miracle symbolizing the spiritual food that fed all the people of God in its mirroring of the old testament word of God by its 153 parts. You also have the three year cycle which was quickly coming to close in chapter 21 mirroring the end of the three year ministry of Jesus.

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law and He famously said, “For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.”.

Not one portion of the Law would fall through the net, not one precept would be ruptured or broken. And the net was filled to capacity symbolizing its fulfillment in Jesus the Word.
 
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irenaeuslyons said:
It may have been the case with Jews like Paul who studied in the Temple using a three year cycle of 153 parts, but probably quickly lost on others, especially the Gentiles and Jews who didn’t spend their time being taught in the Temple. The author of the famously cryptic Revelation was under no mandate to be transparent anymore than Jesus was with his parables, which the disciples could not interpret without asking at times.
What would be the net evangelistic gain for John and his reader if this was John’s point?
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Thanks for your reply.
I see your connection, but I have doubts that John’s readers would have necessarily made those connections.

If we study more I believe we will see a connection that we can be sure that John’s readers would have made. And that the resulting conclusion would have been a profound truth that had very significant relevance to John’s readers.

Much has been written to try to explain the number “153” as how it might relate if we keep with Luke’s analogy that “Fish” was a metaphor with to believers, or to good and bad within the Church.

In my opinion, all conjectures that have begun that way have ended up empty in terms of providing an overwhelming and convincing explanation.

So, I suggest we go back to square one without any prejudices.

The questions similar to :
"What seems best to me ? "
are probably not the best or most revealing questions to ask if we want to understand John’s primary meaning.

We need to look at context, as I contend that context will lead us to the solution that is overwhelming convincing.
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Context - Bible

John was writing in Greek to a Greek audience from the Greek city of Ephesus. See ( Irenaeus Against Heresies III.1.1)

What is the context of this Bible passage ?
What does the Bible tells us about the Greeks, the ones to whom St. John was pastoring ?

Please allow me to jump the gun here and answer my own question.
(Since this thread is taking a whole lot longer than I thought it would.)

Immediately before this account of the miraculous catch John states :

John 20:30-31
“Now Jesus did many other signs … that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may (come to) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God…”

So, we must ask what was the obstacle that kept the Greeks from accepting the Gospel.
The cultural context in which John the Evangelist lived and wrote is the key to understanding to what he was alluding to by the reference of 153 Fish in John 21:11. The simplest explanation is the most probable.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24
“For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but … Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” NAB

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So, please bear with me, as I repeat what I considered to be the important question on my post #5 in this thread back in July.
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Context – Time and Place
So, now the next question is,
“What obvious meaning would ‘153’ have to the Greeks in Ephesus, where St. John wrote, in the first century ?”
 
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@JohnR77 I appreciate what you have written, but I am not sure about the premise its built on. While John explained some Hebrew words like rabbi, I don’t feel he excluded non Greek audiences in his Gospel. Irenaeus doesn’t say that he targeted Gentiles, he merely says it was written in Ephesus. Ephesus had a large and well established Greek speaking Jewish population. Paul, Apollos and others preached to them while visiting in Acts. So while John wrote in Greek, in Ephesus, I believe the Jews were part of his target audience as well. If the Gospel audience was not exclusive, then the 153 would have had significance for the Hellenized Jews.
 
irenaeuslyons said:
I believe the Jews were part of his target audience as well. If the Gospel audience was not exclusive, then the 153 would have had significance for the Hellenized Jews
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Yes. Thank you.
it definitely was And is a universal message.
and it is very relevant today.
I apologize for not writing Very well and leaving myself open to misinterpretation as happened in my parallel thread
How to solve a mystery.

When I get to my desk top computer I will send you my email address and provide you with my phone number as these misunderstandings are more easily addressed verbally than in text. I also want to talk about your fantastic website on the DRB Bible.
John
 
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Ver. 11. Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, one hundred and fifty-three; a figure of the great number to be converted by the labours of the apostles.
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irenaeuslyons said:
So while John wrote in Greek, in Ephesus, I believe the Jews were part of his target audience as well. If the Gospel audience was not exclusive, then the 153 would have had significance for the Hellenized Jews.
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Yes. John’s message was for all Christians. It is a message that every faithful, traditional Christian, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, would agree with.

God brought Peter and Paul to Rome to evangelize the capital of the empire.

Why did John go to Ephesus ? Because he had a nice summer villa there ? I do not think so.

He went there because he knew it was an important center for Greek culture that he wanted to convert.

All statements are spoken or written in context.

For example Matthew’s Gospel reveals new meaning when we translate it back into Hebrew.

The culture of the Ephesus where John lived was the background from which he could draw on to use metaphors that his audience would recognize.

I believe the correct answer has nothing to do with “Pythagorean gematria” or the adding of number values given to letters. There is no reason we have to think his readers could have known that he would have meant any of those speculative calculations.

Since, we have so far found no persuasive argument for “153”

We should consider Greek culture for clues.

Wikipedia
Greek mathematicians lived in cities spread over the entire Eastern Mediterranean, from Italy to North Africa, but were united by culture and language.… One of the most important characteristics of the Greeks was that it excelled in philosophical and mathematical studies was a moral basis for the conduct of life. Indeed, the words philosophy ( love of wisdom ) and mathematics (that which is learned) are said to have been coined by the Greeks.

Who was the greatest Greek mathematician ?

Who was the greatest hero for the Greeks ?

John
 
Ok, lead me on your journey of thought then. I will guess Pythagoras and Achilles. I could be wrong 🙂
 
There are 153 Hail Marys in a complete Rosary and this was forseen
 
As for the 153 Hail Mary’s, I suppose God could have intended that connection.
But as for John, I believe he must have had another metaphorical intention.
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irenaeuslyons said:
Ok, lead me on your journey of thought then. I will guess Pythagoras and Achilles
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I had searched many hours for a connection to Pythagoras. But all I could find was some extremely speculative connection and no substantial religious meaning. So, I do not think St. John could have known his readers would have made any of those speculative connections.

Originally, like so many others I had mistakenly began with the question,
“What seems right to me? What connection would be really cool in my opinion?”

Then, after some research I found that my pet answer was Totally bonkers. There was no evidence to back it up, and to put it plainly it was a terribly stupid idea and it could not possibly have worked.

Those questions I just listed were totally irrelevant. Focusing on my own feelings and guesses, especially with very little research from which to build a reasoned approach was a total waste of time. I think that is why so few people come to the correct answer as to what St. John meant. They waste all their time looking at poorly researched speculation.

One of my goal here was to list qualities that good questions would tend to have, and the qualities that useless questions would tend to have so that future problems could be more easily solved, or at least more wasted time looking at irrelevant questions could be avoided.
But, my sister thread,
“How to solve a Mystery” got timed out with 14 day time limit as I was busy with other things.

Later, after dismissing my stupid idea,
and I attribute this to my guardian angel,
I was able to recall a conversation that I had many, many years ago. It was one or maybe two priests who had said that the answer was to be found by looking at a specific work of Archimedes.
By the way, Wikipedia says that he was the greatest mathematician of antiquity.
(And no, I am not the person who wrote that comment on Wiki.)

At the time of the conversation, I explained that I could not see how 153 could in any way be relevant to that work of Archimedes. I was told that,
“Well, you just have to look at it.”

I thought, well if there was a connection it must have a better and more explainable relevancy than that. And I never thought about it again. At least, not until recently, many, many years later.

So, I am pointing you to Archimedes.
The question is now, which of his many discoveries is the relevant one.

I would call it his greatest discovery, but by that I do not necessarily mean his most profound discovery or invention. It would have to be one that had the most impact on a very large number of people directly or indirectly. Therefore, it would probably have a widespread practical application. The average person would not have to understand it, they would only have to know that “153” was somehow obviously related to that particular work. And that work could by its importance be representative of him, and what their culture highly valued.

Sorry, so long.
Thanks for reading.
John
 
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JohnR77 said:
So, I am pointing you to Archimedes.
The question is now, which of his many discoveries is the relevant one.
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I don’t rightly know, he discovered a lot of things. Approximation of PI? Volume of a sphere?
 
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