John 21:11. 153 fish. Father George Rutler comments on the meaning of 153 fish

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Ironically in regards to my mistake above, once I’ve explained the meaning of a 153 fish I will develop that into a good argument against arrogance and even a 2nd and stronger argument against modernism which is at the root of a lot of problems the Church has been going through for the last year…

Thanks John… All who are on the same page re: being in Opposition to Modernism operating within some corridors of the Church - are by default - “buddies” …
I’ve quite a lot of 1st Hand experiences connected with Modernism - and Apostasy - including yes Numerology - going back many a moon… So I’m a bit trigger happy in that regard. 🙂

Peace.
 
EndTimes said:
Thanks John… All who are on the same page re: being in Opposition to Modernism operating within some corridors of the Church - are by default - “buddies” …
I’ve quite a lot of 1st Hand experiences connected with Modernism - and Apostasy - including yes Numerology - going back many a moon… So I’m a bit trigger happy in that regard. 🙂

Peace.
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Ok,
But if you wish to discuss the subjects of Modernism or Numerology, please, I beg you, start a new thread. Neither of those subjects will help in solving what John meant by 153 fish
 
BartholomewB said:
What, then, was your purpose in posting those seven or eight links? You now seem to be saying that they are all, every one of them, irrelevant to your argument.
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Two things,

First,

I am admitting that it is challenging for me to make good on my claim that the number 153 was an obvious reference to Archimedes work on Pi by John.

Second,

It helps explain why so many give up investigating any possible connection in that regard, and so are unable to solve the mystery.

In a tangent way, it also helps to explain why the Church Fathers never resolved this issue with each disagreeing with the other.

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BartholomewB said:
What is so surprising about that? Ephesus stood at what was then the head of navigation on the Cayster River. Many seaports are located at the head of navigation of their respective rivers, for example, in the UK, London (on the Thames) and Bristol (on the Avon).

Duluth is an extreme case:
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Okay,

I will say you got this one right.

But please explain your case precisely in light of the following :

See Google Maps for these cities

If I knew how to sail a boat I could imaging floating it to Duluth,

But not Ephesus.

Duluth, MN

Ephesus Turkey

Actually Ephesus is no longer a city, only ruins at nearby existing city Selcuk.

By precisely stating why you are right, we can apply what we can learn here to the harder and more difficult to solve mystery of Archimedes. That is we can be sure to ask the right question in regards to our investigation of how 153 was so important to Archimedes work.

God bless,

John
 
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BartholomewB said:
Archimedes was born in Syracuse and lived there until he went to study under Conon in Alexandria, after which he returned to Syracuse and lived there the rest of his life. As far as anyone knows, he never set foot in Ephesus. What makes you think there might be a connection?
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In history class did you ever hear the term Magna Graecia

Magna Graecia

Μεγάλη Ελλάς

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MAGNA GRAECIA (or “Greater GREECE”) was the geographic expression of Greek colonization originating from many different Greek cities. … Because these colonies remained closely linked to their home cities in Greece proper, they together were known as Magna Graecia.

Alexandria was in modern day Egypt. Ephesus was in modern day Turkey. Syracuse was in modern day Sicily. Back in that time it was all part of greater Hellas, that would be Greek, or Greece to you and me.

Magna Graecia ; Latin meaning “Great Greece”, Greek: Μεγάλη Ἑλλάς, Megálē Hellás

They were all Greek cities, and the people in question, except for John the Apostle, all considered themselves Greek.

Did you ever realize that asking a question requires a minimal amount of time, experience, research, or ______ .

But answering the question correctly takes a lot more time, etc.
 
As far as I can see from the articles, Archimedes used 265/153 for his approximation √3. He would use the √3 approximation in calculating the approximation for PI.

https://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath038/kmath038.htm

I don’t think this is a very compelling argument. For one, it is really an obscure use of 153. 153 is not used as a whole number, its just a denominator for a fraction representing the lower bound limit on the approximation of √3. There is also the upper bound limit which does not use 153 at all. And this has nothing to do with PI at this point.

I do not think any Greek associated the number 153 with Archimedes or wisdom or even PI based on this.

Sorry John, I think we can put this one to rest.
 
Your map will give you an idea of how many seaports there were in Magna Graecia, aka the Hellenistic world. Archimedes is known to have lived in two of those seaports, Syracuse and Alexandria. He may have visited other seaports as well, but we have no record of that. There is no evidence to suggest that he was familiar with Ephesus or any other seaport apart from those two.
 
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BartholomewB said:
Archimedes is known to have lived in two of those seaports, Syracuse and Alexandria. He may have visited other seaports as well, but we have no record of that. There is no evidence to suggest that he was familiar with Ephesus or any other seaport apart from those two.
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And it is completely irrelevant one way or the other.
 
BartholomewB said:
Just as Archimedes and his approximations to π are completely irrelevant to the number of fish in Peter’s net.
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I tried to send the following by personal message, but for some strange reason you have that shut down.

Greetings BartholomewB,
I prayed for you today.
I hope you are having a good day,

I believe i have a proposal that is a win - win solution for both of us.
Since we each hold that the other’s comments are irrelevant, let each of us stay off any thread started by the other.

If I write something, or you write something that the other for some reason feels the need to refute then that person can start his own thread stating what he believes to be true.

For example, you could begin a thread
JohnR77 is wrong, stupid,etc. The Fact is …

I really do not enjoy explaining why I believe your position to be wrong, illogical, etc.
Thanks,
Please pray about this,
John
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“if you wish to discuss the subjects of Modernism or Numerology, please, I beg you, start a new thread. Neither of those subjects will help in solving what John meant by 153 fish”

Your comment presumes 153 is a Number with deeper meaning:
an important “puzzle” thus far UnResolved of which we must Focus upon…

Consider This

Our Lord’s suggestion to Peter and company who’d caught nothing thus far - to toss their nets deep and on the right side of their boat - which in turn brought in a very large haul - was Miraculous thus Revealing - and was the very moment in which Peter recognized Jesus as Lord and fell at Jesus’ knees and said, "Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!"…

Jesus responded "Don’t be afraid; from now on you will be fishers of men!"
after which Peter and his partners James and John left everything and followed Jesus.

Meditate on that…

So yes, somehow solely spotlighting upon a Number strongly smells of Numerology
 
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If you don’t want to read what I write, you can easily do that without any (name removed by moderator)ut from me. The system allows you either to “Ignore” me or to “Mute” me.

One final request. To the best of my knowledge, my PM function is working perfectly. Other CAFers send me PMs from time to time, and this is the first time anyone has complained of a difficulty. Would you kindly test it just one last time, to make sure? Thank you.
 
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BartholomewB said:
May I suggest starting off with just one single point. For instance, bearing in mind that Archimedes’ approach was to calculate the perimeter of regular polygons having a very large number of sides, your answer might be to specify which, exactly, of all those polygons is the one that leads to 153? You can leave the detailed calculations for later.
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Your question is not so easily answered as Archimedes did not really draw any polygons, although one could extrapolate that he did draw one in each of his two sections in his mind.

I will explain more later
John
 
Hi BartholomewB.
I apologize for asking you to not post On my threads. I’m sorry. I was wrong. I get frustrated when my time is short Relative to the time I need to explain things. Some of your ideas are on track but I want to adjust them somewhat.

You have some good points to consider

My question.
Which of Archimedes sections was most important ?
For several reasons, I will argue the 1st
John
 
No need to apologize, John. We just misunderstood one another. It was an accident. Accidents happen.

I look forward to seeing the results of your research!
 
irenaeuslyons said:
As far as I can see from the articles, Archimedes used 265/153 for his approximation √3. He would use the √3 approximation in calculating the approximation for PI.

https://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath038/kmath038.htm

I don’t think this is a very compelling argument. For one, it is really an obscure use of 153. 153 is not used as a whole number, its just a denominator for a fraction representing the lower bound limit on the approximation of √3. There is also the upper bound limit which does not use 153 at all. And this has nothing to do with PI at this point.

I do not think any Greek associated the number 153 with Archimedes or wisdom or even PI based on this.

Sorry John, I think we can put this one to rest.
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Hi Irenaeuslyons,

Thanks for your reply.

Would you be grateful, if I kindly pointed out that the material you presented is not really relevant in regards to the connection ? It only shows the difficulty that many are having in seeing why there is strong connection between 153 and Archimedes work on Pi.

Also, keep in mind that St. John was presenting a teaching here that was orthodox. It is something about which all Christians agree.

And in regards to what you presented, John’s message was something the common man in Ephesus would be able to see. John’s message was not something that only those into math theory would be able to recognize.

John

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I suspect the answer will be found in the Scriptures rather than Greek mathematics. So I propose that we try to understand the passage from the Scriptures which may enlighten. Jesus already had a fish so there are really 154 fish. Second In many ancient versions of this story Peter is called the son of Jonas (Jonah) and the fish are mega fish so there is a clear link to Jonah and the great fish who converted the gentiles of Nineveh pointing to Peter converting Cornelius and later ministering to convert Rome. Jesus was again affirming Peter as His successor. I believe Peter put on his clothes because he anticipated walking on the water, but instead got baptized again. Since Peter’s boat represents the church and he could only pull in the fish after he went back into the boat there could be church connections as well. I also wonder if the 153/154 represents the total number of believing disciples at this point and they were large because they would all make additional disciples. Besides the charcoal fire connection to Peter’s denial what other links are there to the scriptures and how can they add to our understanding? Why 7 disciples? Why are 2 unnamed? Why are the named disciples the one’s either closest to Jesus or the one’s who made the greatest statements of faith in Jesus?
 
The image I posted above is the passage John 21:11 from a Greek Bible

So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three of them; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.

John
 
Hi JohnR77,

I am grateful you didn’t let me go down the rabbit hole any further. I would be more grateful if you finally told us what you feel this “strong connection” is. I think we are all looking forward to reading it.
 
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I will say more later, but here is how it was depicted in 1100 AD
 
I will argue that’s the most important section of Archimedes work on pi is the 1st section. It is this 1st section that comes up with the most easily used fraction of 22/7. .
The architect or the builder or the mathematician is going to use this much simpler fraction than the one in Archimedes 2nd Section on pi.
So this is the section that most people will know about. And not Coincidently The math of this section Makes it easy for John To allude to it with the number 153

John
 
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