John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven?

[CEM5]

“It wasn’t the purpose of Jesus to glorify Elijah and Moses” was not intended to say that they were were not transformed in their appearance, because they were. But it wasn’t to glorify them as such but rather to impress the apostles with this vision to strengthen their trust in who Jesus was. Peter was asked the very question later who Jesus said to him,“who do others say I am?”. And peter responded that they believed Jesus was Moses, John the Baptist, or a prophet. And then He asked Peter, who do you say I am? Then Peter acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God. He was building Peter up to this in the transfiguration on the mountain.

Moses was also transfigured on the mountain in the O.T. and when he came down to address the Jews, his face shone so brightly that he had to cover it up so the people would not be afraid to approach him. The people were truely impressed by his glowing countenance and knew by this he was a man of God.

Why Jesus specifically choose Elijah and Moses for this scene would be hidden in the decisional thoughts of Jesus.

“… non-Believers… those who had died rejecting God on a time that God’s Salvific Plan was not readily made known…”
I would appreciate if you would direct me to that passage in some way so I could look at the whole paragraph. I would very much like to look at that.

Just a few thoughts.

Hi fred conty,

Moses’ face “shone” but he was not transfigured as Jesus was. Moses’ face reflected the Glory of God’s Divine presence, whereas Jesus’ whole body emanated with the glorious Divinity of who He is: the Divine God in person. On the mount with Jesus, the spirits of Moses and Elijah were not transfigured on the mount with Jesus. They conversed about the trials of Jesus that were to come, and they represented the Prophets and the Law of God. Here is also the second and last time that God declared " “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him.”.

Ex 34:
29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, with the two tables of the testimony in his hand as he came down from the mountain, Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God. 30 And when Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

blessings,
CEM

 

[jcrichton]

“It wasn’t the purpose of Jesus to glorify Elijah and Moses” was not intended to say that they were were not transformed in their appearance, because they were. But it wasn’t to glorify them as such but rather to impress the apostles with this vision to strengthen their trust in who Jesus was. Peter was asked the very question later who Jesus said to him,“who do others say I am?”. And peter responded that they believed Jesus was Moses, John the Baptist, or a prophet. And then He asked Peter, who do you say I am? Then Peter acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God. He was building Peter up to this in the transfiguration on the mountain.

Moses was also transfigured on the mountain in the O.T. and when he came down to address the Jews, his face shone so brightly that he had to cover it up so the people would not be afraid to approach him. The people were truely impressed by his glowing countenance and knew by this he was a man of God.

Why Jesus specifically choose Elijah and Moses for this scene would be hidden in the decisional thoughts of Jesus.

…I think we are caught in a loop… my understanding of the Transfiguration is that something extraordinary happened… hence my definition of Glorified Christ and that He gloried two of His dead-hundreds-of-years-ago servants… in my mind, Moses and Elijah had to be brought into existence (in the Spirit) since both Jesus and His chosen three Disciples engaged them, albeit on different levels… so if they were placed in limbo/rest/Paradise/Sheol Jesus, as temporarily as it was, took them out of retirement and placed them back into active duty (militarily speaking).

“… non-Believers… those who had died rejecting God on a time that God’s Salvific Plan was not readily made known…”
I would appreciate if you would direct me to that passage in some way so I could look at the whole paragraph. I would very much like to look at that.

Just a few thoughts.

Here’s how St. Peter puts it:

18 Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, 19 and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. 20 They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah’s time when the ark was being built. (1 St. Peter 3:18-20a)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

In the previous posts, you were speaking about the Old Testaments Saints and this is to what I had replied. They were waiting for Jesus, and therefore waiting for the redemption and the Firstfruits (Jesus) who opened the gates of heaven. On earth we serve one another and God; in heaven we share fellowship with God (jsut as Adam and Eve shared that face-to-face with God in Eden) once again and no longer toil and suffer the trials of this earthly life. We will no longer experience tiredness, illness or any suffering.

…I fear here too we are caught in a loop… I do not differenciate the Old Testament from the New (Hebrews 11; specifically vv 39-40)… my arguement is that though Scriptures Reveal certain things that appear almost crystal clear… neither the acute nor obtuse Revelations set limits on God’s Omnipotence and Will… for me to determine that Elijah or Enoch in deed did not enter Heaven is to presume to know as God and to determine for God what He actually meant by singling them out from the multitudes… Heaven is God’s Realm not mine and Heaven is not comprised of the Knowledge Revealed in the Oral or Written Sacred Traditions: God has both the Power and Ability to do what He says!

By the way: I am curious as to what miracles have to do with your above question/post in respect to life-after-death?

Both in Scriptures and Church history there are accounts of miracles performed by the relics or clothing of God’s dead Servants… Yahweh God has determined to prove that He Lives and that His Servants Live through and in Him so He is able to use us even after our physical existence ceases!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No, they did not appear in the same manner as Jesus, nor did they share in His transfigured. Jesus appeared in His Divinity, as the, Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. Peter, James and John were there as well, and don’t forget: they weren’t transfigured either. TheTtransfiguration is not the same as the Resurrection.

Matthew 17:2-3, 5 RSVA
2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became white as light. . 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli’jah, talking with Him… 5 He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him.”

…so they were in the flesh?

…and how is it that St. Peter though that something extraordinary had happened:

2 There in their presence he was transfigured: his face shone like the sun and his clothes became as dazzling as light. 3 And suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared to them; they were talking with him. 4 Then Peter spoke to Jesus. ‘Lord,’ he said, ‘it is wonderful for us to be here; if you want me to, I will make three shelters here, one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.’ (St. Matthew 17:2-4)

…from my understanding, St. Peter is speaking of tents/shelters for the purpose of worship… thinking that they were in the presence of God and His Servants (Apocalypse 4:6-9; 5:6-14; 7:11; 19:4)–if this were not the case… why is it that that is the only time when Kephas/Cephas is moved to prepare shelters?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Chowmah]

…so they were in the flesh?

…and how is it that St. Peter though that something extraordinary had happened:

…from my understanding, St. Peter is speaking of tents/shelters for the purpose of worship… thinking that they were in the presence of God and His Servants (Apocalypse 4:6-9; 5:6-14; 7:11; 19:4)–if this were not the case… why is it that that is the only time when Kephas/Cephas is moved to prepare shelters?

Maran atha!

Angel

The WORD actually says tabernacles. Its an actual picture of the 1000yr period of rest. Easy to prove

 

[Ecoclimber]

Before Christ’s ascension, heaven was closed

The parable of the rich man and lazurus.
Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.”

But Abraham said, “Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.”

After Christ’s ascension

St. Paul was taken to heaven 2 Cor.12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. St. Paul mentions things that could not be revealed on what he saw.

St John was caught up to Heaven in the Book of Revelation Rev. 4:1

Today with medical technology, many people have NDE, near death experiences but you have to be careful of these testimonies having investigated these myself with a clinical psychologist.

There is this testimony of an avowed atheist who was a tenured art professor and chairman of the Art Department at Eastern Kentucky State University. He had a nun in his art class who was praying for his soul. He hated Christians and told her he would not tolerate any nonsense or discussion in his classroom concerning God. While over in Europe on an art tour with his students, he had a medical emergency and died. You have to be careful of these accounts because of Satanic deception, medical explanation or false testimony.

What makes this testimony so real is his emotional response as he was being taken to hell. The fact he didn’t believe in hell. After his experience he resigned his tenure position at his college to server God. The intervention of Jesus was probably caused by the prayers of the sister in his art class. What was interesting is the fact he didn’t want to go back but was not allowed into heaven. He was told that some people had to go through a purification process before being allowed into heaven similar to purgatory. He did not know anything concerning Christian concepts or theology. His name is Howard Storm.

youtube.com/watch?v=b9f2n0xPZ3k

Blessings to all

 

[jcrichton]

The WORD actually says tabernacles. Its an actual picture of the 1000yr period of rest. Easy to prove

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks!

…this is where I was heading… St. Peter was in the habit of jumping for Jesus… experiencing such a wonderful scene his mind goes into overdrive and he (from my perspective) makes a direct connection with worshiping Yahweh God… the word “latereia” popped into my mind as St. Peter wheels begin to spin out of control… ‘I know, build tents/tabernacles’ to praise God and thank Him for allowing us to be part of this wondrous event!

…even though he did not fully undestand the vision, St. Peter was ready to serve!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CEM5]

…I fear here too we are caught in a loop… I do not differenciate the Old Testament from the New (Hebrews 11; specifically vv 39-40)… my arguement is that though Scriptures Reveal certain things that appear almost crystal clear… neither the acute nor obtuse Revelations set limits on God’s Omnipotence and Will… for me to determine that Elijah or Enoch in deed did not enter Heaven is to presume to know as God and to determine for God what He actually meant by singling them out from the multitudes… Heaven is God’s Realm not mine and Heaven is not comprised of the Knowledge Revealed in the Oral or Written Sacred Traditions: God has both the Power and Ability to do what He says!

Scripture reveals to us that before Jesus ascended into heaven NO ONE was in heaven with God (except the Holy angels). Jesus is the first fruits who opened the gates of heaven. He is the bridge between mankind and God. After His death, resurrection and Ascension, He then took the souls of those previously departed saints (OT) and brought them into heaven.

John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

1 Cor 15
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

When Christ comes again, at the Parousia, (His second coming), we will all be given resurrected immortal bodies. Scripture explains this in more detail throughout the New Testament. In the meantime, we when we die, our bodies return to the dust of earth, whereas our immortal souls either go to heaven (purgatory first if we have venial sins) or to hell.

Eph 4
8 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

At Jesus’ ascension, He brought the souls from Sheol with Him to heaven. Jesus entered heaven first, leading those souls to follow after Him.

…Both in Scriptures and Church history there are accounts of miracles performed by the relics or clothing of God’s dead Servants… Yahweh God has determined to prove that He Lives and that His Servants Live through and in Him so He is able to use us even after our physical existence ceases!

Maran atha!

Angel

Yes this is true and has always been even in the Old Testament miracles (re: Moses for example).

blessings,

 

[CEM5]

Originally Posted by CEM5
No, they did not appear in the same manner as Jesus, nor did they share in His transfigured. Jesus appeared in His Divinity, as the, Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. Peter, James and John were there as well, and don’t forget: they weren’t transfigured either. TheTtransfiguration is not the same as the Resurrection.

Matthew 17:2-3, 5 RSVA
2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became white as light. . 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli’jah, talking with Him… 5 He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him.”

…so they were in the flesh?

…and how is it that St. Peter though that something extraordinary had happened:

No. Elijah and Moses were not in the flesh - they appeared in the spirit (their souls). Just as Samuel appeared to the witch in the Old Testament in his spirit (soul) when she summoned him from Sheol.

Peter of course thought something extraordinary occurred: Jesus was transfigured before their eyes! Eljiah and Moses encompased all the Prophets and all the Law of God, and bore witness to Jesus’ divinity. Jesus appeared in His divinity (second Person – the Son of God) as was clarified by God Himself when God spoke those words “This is my Son…”

…from my understanding, St. Peter is speaking of tents/shelters for the purpose of worship… thinking that they were in the presence of God and His Servants (Apocalypse 4:6-9; 5:6-14; 7:11; 19:4)–if this were not the case… why is it that that is the only time when Kephas/Cephas is moved to prepare shelters?

Maran atha!

Angel

From the Catholic teachings, of Luke 9 : Douay-Rheims Bible parallel
Haydock Commentary

Three tabernacles. The Lord does appoint thee the builder, not of tabernacles, but of his whole Church. Thy disciples, thy sheep, have fulfilled thy desire, by erecting tabernacles for Christ and his faithful servants. These words of S. Peter, let us make, &c. were not spoken of himself, but by the prophetic inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Therefore it is added, he knew not what he said. Damasus, ut supra. — S. Peter knew not what he said, because by proposing to make three tabernacles for these three personages, he improperly ranked together, the servants and their Lord, the creature and the Creator. Titus Bostrensis.

 

[jcrichton]

Scripture reveals to us that before Jesus ascended into heaven NO ONE was in heaven with God (except the Holy angels). Jesus is the first fruits who opened the gates of heaven. He is the bridge between mankind and God. After His death, resurrection and Ascension, He then took the souls of those previously departed saints (OT) and brought them into heaven.

John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Correct! But to Ascend implies that there’s autonomy–not the same with “taken into Heaven.” Enoch and Elijah did not ascend… and though Scriptures do not speak of their temporal bodies being changed one can surmise that there was a determined morphing that took place since both of these two Servants were alive when they were “taken;” or are we to ascertain from the respective passages that Yahweh God killed them (terminated their coporeal existence) as a reward for being His Servants? …wouldn’t it be more congruous with Scriptures that they were “taken” into Heaven and that their bodies were changed (as per St. Paul’s revelation) but this done in Christ?:

1 Since you have been raised up to be with Christ, you must look for the things that are above, where Christ is, sitting at God’s right hand. 2 Let your thoughts be on things above, not on the things that are on the earth, 3 because you have died, and now the life you have is hidden with Christ in God. 4 But when Christ is revealed – and he is your life-you, too, will be revealed with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

…this passage speaks of the Believers’ resurrection and true being hidden in Christ even though they (we) were still contained by their temporal existence… God’s Way are not always expressed or take place in a chronological order that conforms to our temporal existence.

1 Cor 15
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

…yeah… no problem there… well… except:

50 But Jesus, again crying out in a loud voice, yielded up his spirit. 51 And suddenly, the veil of the Sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth quaked, the rocks were split, 52 the tombs opened and the bodies of many holy people rose from the dead, 53 and these, after his resurrection, came out of the tombs, entered the holy city and appeared to a number of people. (St. Matthew 27:50-53)

Clearly, the above passage demonstrate that God’s Servants were resurrected even before Christ was put in the tomb–this would, technically, make them the first in the resurrection from the dead… but note how, in the Spirit, they understood that they could not enter the holy city till Christ’s Resurrection, thusly allowing Christ to be the First and conform to Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No. Elijah and Moses were not in the flesh - they appeared in the spirit (their souls). Just as Samuel appeared to the witch in the Old Testament in his spirit (soul) when she summoned him from Sheol.

Peter of course thought something extraordinary occurred: Jesus was transfigured before their eyes! Eljiah and Moses encompased all the Prophets and all the Law of God, and bore witness to Jesus’ divinity. Jesus appeared in His divinity (second Person – the Son of God) as was clarified by God Himself when God spoke those words “This is my Son…”

This is exactly my point… either they were removed into limbo/Sheol/Paradise or they were made part of God’s Salvific Plan… even Samuel did not appear to the witch because she somehow had some divine powers to conjure up a Servant of God but was allowed to experience a visit/vision from Samuel… in all situations it is God Himself that permits/enables these visions/visits.

From the Catholic teachings, of Luke 9 : Douay-Rheims Bible parallel
Haydock Commentary

Three tabernacles. The Lord does appoint thee the builder, not of tabernacles, but of his whole Church. Thy disciples, thy sheep, have fulfilled thy desire, by erecting tabernacles for Christ and his faithful servants. These words of S. Peter, let us make, &c. were not spoken of himself, but by the prophetic inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Therefore it is added, he knew not what he said. Damasus, ut supra. — S. Peter knew not what he said, because by proposing to make three tabernacles for these three personages, he improperly ranked together, the servants and their Lord, the creature and the Creator. Titus Bostrensis.

…again, the fact remains that St. Peter understands that there’s a wonderful experience which he and the other two disciples have been granted… and he sees a direct connection to Worshiping Yahweh God… clearly, recognizing people that have long been dead cannot be but a Revelation of the Holy Spirit… Kephas impetuousness compels him to act as the Revelation is translated into a sense of euphoria which he cannot contain… it is understandable that he would propose to translate the experience into what his mind understood: tent = tabernacle: great place to be so that we can Worship God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CEM5]

Correct! But to Ascend implies that there’s autonomy–not the same with “taken into Heaven.” Enoch and Elijah did not ascend… and though Scriptures do not speak of their temporal bodies being changed one can surmise that there was a determined morphing that took place since both of these two Servants were alive when they were “taken;” or are we to ascertain from the respective passages that Yahweh God killed them (terminated their coporeal existence) as a reward for being His Servants? …wouldn’t it be more congruous with Scriptures that they were “taken” into Heaven and that their bodies were changed (as per St. Paul’s revelation) but this done in Christ?:

Enoch and Elijah were “taken into heaven” – not the heaven where God dwells (where we - our souls - go now after our death. I am surprised that you use the words “God killed” them, then say “as a reward for being His servants”…All of us – including Mary, and all the Saints, – even Jesus Himself – must die. Our earthly existence ends (the demise of our corporeal body), nonetheless, our souls never cease to exist: they are immortal. When God took Enoch and Elijah up into (the sky) “heaven”, yes, their corporeal bodies ceased to exist. No human body can remain alive in the heavens (outer space). Their life on earth was ended, and their souls went to Sheol, awaiting the time of Christ Jesus. They “died” a “good” way in my opinion. They did not linger in any illness; they did not die in battle; they did not die of hunger or thirst…

And no: their bodies were not changed – and you do not understand Paul’s scripture if you think so. We will not have changed (resurrected) bodies until AFTER Christ’s Second Coming. That is made clear in Scripture. Christ is the First Fruits, and He is the only one to be resurrected, and have the glorious, resurrected body.

1 Since you have been raised up to be with Christ, you must look for the things that are above, where Christ is, sitting at God’s right hand. 2 Let your thoughts be on things above, not on the things that are on the earth, 3 because you have died, and now the life you have is hidden with Christ in God. 4 But when Christ is revealed – and he is your life-you, too, will be revealed with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

…this passage speaks of the Believers’ resurrection and true being hidden in Christ even though they (we) were still contained by their temporal existence… God’s Way are not always expressed or take place in a chronological order that conforms to our temporal existence.

No it doesn’t. It speaks of our baptism in Christ. We have been raised up to be with Christ, and while on earth now, we must keep ourselves focused on Christ and His promises, and not on our earthly desires. In baptism we die to ourselves and are raised as new creatures in Christ. We “clothe ourselves” with Christ (Put on Christ as Scripture reveals).

Rom 6:
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
Gal 3
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

…yeah… no problem there… well… except:

50 But Jesus, again crying out in a loud voice, yielded up his spirit. 51 And suddenly, the veil of the Sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth quaked, the rocks were split, 52 the tombs opened and the bodies of many holy people rose from the dead, 53 and these, after his resurrection, came out of the tombs, entered the holy city and appeared to a number of people. (St. Matthew 27:50-53)

Clearly, the above passage demonstrate that God’s Servants were resurrected even before Christ was put in the tomb–this would, technically, make them the first in the resurrection from the dead… but note how, in the Spirit, they understood that they could not enter the holy city till Christ’s Resurrection, thusly allowing Christ to be the First and conform to Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)!

Maran atha!

Angel

No, it clearly does NOT state they were resurrected.

Note verse 53: AFTER His resurrection, those holy people rose from the dead (or “sleep” as some translations depict). They were ***raised from dead ***and witnessed to those around, (just as Lazarus was raised from the dead - and NOT resurrected), and appeared to many. The Scripture clearly does not say they were resurrected - it says they were raised. Big difference. And again, this only happened after Jesus’ resurrection. Those holy saints could not enter Heaven yet: they had to wait until AFTER Jesus’ Ascension into heaven, then Jesus led them into heaven (their souls). Our earthly bodies cannot exist in heaven.

 

[CEM5]

This is exactly my point… either they were removed into limbo/Sheol/Paradise or they were made part of God’s Salvific Plan… even Samuel did not appear to the witch because she somehow had some divine powers to conjure up a Servant of God but was allowed to experience a visit/vision from Samuel… in all situations it is God Himself that permits/enables these visions/visits.

Very true! It is God who permits it. And yes, they were removed temporarily from Sheol to appear in their spiritual form (soul). Our souls appear very lifelike (as visions of Mary have shown to those who have been privileged to see).

…again, the fact remains that St. Peter understands that there’s a wonderful experience which he and the other two disciples have been granted… and he sees a direct connection to Worshiping Yahweh God… clearly, recognizing people that have long been dead cannot be but a Revelation of the Holy Spirit… Kephas impetuousness compels him to act as the Revelation is translated into a sense of euphoria which he cannot contain… it is understandable that he would propose to translate the experience into what his mind understood: tent = tabernacle: great place to be so that we can Worship God!

Maran atha!

Angel

No disgreement of that!

 

[jcrichton]

Enoch and Elijah were “taken into heaven” – not the heaven where God dwells (where we - our souls - go now after our death. I am surprised that you use the words “God killed” them, then say “as a reward for being His servants”…All of us – including Mary, and all the Saints, – even Jesus Himself – must die. Our earthly existence ends (the demise of our corporeal body), nonetheless, our souls never cease to exist: they are immortal. When God took Enoch and Elijah up into (the sky) “heaven”, yes, their corporeal bodies ceased to exist. No human body can remain alive in the heavens (outer space). Their life on earth was ended, and their souls went to Sheol, awaiting the time of Christ Jesus. They “died” a “good” way in my opinion. They did not linger in any illness; they did not die in battle; they did not die of hunger or thirst…

And no: their bodies were not changed – and you do not understand Paul’s scripture if you think so. We will not have changed (resurrected) bodies until AFTER Christ’s Second Coming. That is made clear in Scripture. Christ is the First Fruits, and He is the only one to be resurrected, and have the glorious, resurrected body.

No it doesn’t. It speaks of our baptism in Christ. We have been raised up to be with Christ, and while on earth now, we must keep ourselves focused on Christ and His promises, and not on our earthly desires. In baptism we die to ourselves and are raised as new creatures in Christ. We “clothe ourselves” with Christ (Put on Christ as Scripture reveals).

Rom 6:
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
Gal 3
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

No, it clearly does NOT state they were resurrected.

Note verse 53: AFTER His resurrection, those holy people rose from the dead (or “sleep” as some translations depict). They were ***raised from dead ***and witnessed to those around, (just as Lazarus was raised from the dead - and NOT resurrected), and appeared to many. The Scripture clearly does not say they were resurrected - it says they were raised. Big difference. And again, this only happened after Jesus’ resurrection. Those holy saints could not enter Heaven yet: they had to wait until AFTER Jesus’ Ascension into heaven, then Jesus led them into heaven (their souls). Our earthly bodies cannot exist in heaven.

I think that is best to end it here… we do not seem to be able to read the same from the same Biblical text… I can’t recall where it states that Enoch and Elijah were brought into a lesser Heaven than the final Heaven which will be inherited by Christians and you can’t seem to read that came out of the tombs means that they actually walked out not that were resurrected and later re-resurrected.

God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I always thought that Enoch and Elijah were in the clouds right outside the gate of heaven.

If there can be a division in Sheol between Abraham’s boson and the Hell of the damned–why couldn’t there have been a division between a lower heaven that Elijah and Enoch went to and the ultimate heaven whose gates were only opened by Christ?

 

[CEM5]

I think that is best to end it here… we do not seem to be able to read the same from the same Biblical text… I can’t recall where it states that Enoch and Elijah were brought into a lesser Heaven than the final Heaven which will be inherited by Christians and you can’t seem to read that came out of the tombs means that they actually walked out not that were resurrected and later re-resurrected.

God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

I was educated by the Church and follow their teachings, and no where in the Canon of Scripture does it say that they were brought into a lesser heaven.

 

[jcrichton]

I always thought that Enoch and Elijah were in the clouds right outside the gate of heaven.

If there can be a division in Sheol between Abraham’s boson and the Hell of the damned–why couldn’t there have been a division between a lower heaven that Elijah and Enoch went to and the ultimate heaven whose gates were only opened by Christ?

…Jesus taught using parables… there really wasn’t a rich man who had several brothers and knew a poor sickly man named Lazarous… consider too that every peson that would die in the similar standings as that Lazarous would end up on Abraham’s bosom… would that then make Abraham as big as a mountain or would he continue to grow in perpetuity to accomodate all of the people that would end up on his bosom?

Maran atha!

Angel

PS: …that man that would return from the tomb is Jesus and, as the parable taught, many did not Believe (even today)!

 

[jcrichton]

I was educated by the Church and follow their teachings, and no where in the Canon of Scripture does it say that they were brought into a lesser heaven.

…my point exactly!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CEM5]

…my point exactly!

Maran atha!

Angel

They were brought up to the sky and ceased to exist in their earthly bodies. They (their souls) went to Sheol to await Christ’s resurrection along with the other OT saints.

 

[jcrichton]

They were brought up to the sky and ceased to exist in their earthly bodies. They (their souls) went to Sheol to await Christ’s resurrection along with the other OT saints.

…could you please cite the passage in the Sacred Scriptures that tells us that… thanks!

Maran atha!

Angel