John 3:13

[Trevor_Stamm]

John 3:13 (Rheims)
And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

I’m a bit stumped on this verse when it comes to Enoch, Eiljah and Moses. Or when Eiljah and Moses appeared to Jesus on the mountain of transfiguration. What is the Church’s stance, or doctrine, concerning this issue?

 

[nablaise]

I am not sure if the official stance or if there is any yet.

I think when Jesus said ‘the son of man who is in heaven’ he is saying that he was in Heaven even as he was walking on Earth. By this, he meant that heaven is not a place but state of being. And no one can be in this state except the one who is in it always and is now connecting it to the human nature.

I have feeling that Enoch and Elijah could have gone on some other planet or some other dimensions of being but not exactly heaven.

God bless

 

[thistle]

John 13:3 (Rheims)
And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

I’m a bit stumped on this verse when it comes to Enoch, Eiljah and Moses. Or when Eiljah and Moses appeared to Jesus on the mountain of transfiguration. What is the Church’s stance, or doctrine, concerning this issue?

For your information Jesus was the only one who ascended into Heaven (under his own power as God)
The others you mention plus Mary, of course, did not go to Heaven under their own power. They were assumed into Heaven by the power of God.
Ascension and Assumption are different things.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 13. No man hath ascended—but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven. These words, divers times repeated by our Saviour, in their literal and obvious sense, shew that Christ was in heaven, and had a being before he was born of the Virgin Mary, against the Cerinthians, &c. That he descended from heaven: that when he was made man, and conversed with men on earth, he was at the same time in heaven. Some Socinians give us here their groundless fancy, that Jesus after his baptism took a journey to heaven, and returned again before his death. Nor yet would this make him in heaven, when he spoke this to his disciples. (Witham)

 

[Dave_B]

John 13:3 I’m a bit stumped on this verse

I’m going to make a controversial statement and say that you could just accept it as being a contradiction. There are plenty more Apologies to Bible literalists out there

 

[Barbkw]

catholicnewsagency.com/news/the_transfiguration_shows_that_jesus_alone_guides_us_pope_benedict_teaches/

 

[Barbkw]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p3.htm

From the Catechism

Paragraph 3. **The Mysteries of Christ’s Life **

A foretaste of the Kingdom: the **Transfiguration **

554 From the day Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the Master "began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things. . . and be killed, and on the third day be raised."290 Peter scorns this prediction, nor do the others understand it any better than he.291 In this context the mysterious episode of Jesus’ Transfiguration takes place on a high mountain,292 before three witnesses chosen by himself: Peter, James and John. Jesus’ face and clothes become dazzling with light, and Moses and Elijah appear, speaking “of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem”.293 A cloud covers him and a voice from heaven says: "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"294

555 For a moment Jesus discloses his divine glory, confirming Peter’s confession. He also reveals that he will have to go by the way of the cross at Jerusalem in order to “enter into his glory”.295 Moses and Elijah had seen God’s glory on the Mountain; the Law and the Prophets had announced the Messiah’s sufferings.296 Christ’s Passion is the will of the Father: the Son acts as God’s servant;297 the cloud indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit. "The whole Trinity appeared: the Father in the voice; the Son in the man; the Spirit in the shining cloud."298

You were transfigured on the mountain, and your disciples, as much as they were capable of it, beheld your glory, O Christ our God, so that when they should see you crucified they would understand that your Passion was voluntary, and proclaim to the world that you truly are the splendor of the Father.299

556 On the threshold of the public life: the baptism; on the threshold of the Passover: the Transfiguration. Jesus’ baptism proclaimed “the mystery of the first regeneration”, namely, our Baptism; the Transfiguration “is the sacrament of the second regeneration”: our own Resurrection.300 From now on we share in the Lord’s Resurrection through the Spirit who acts in the sacraments of the Body of Christ. The Transfiguration gives us a foretaste of Christ’s glorious coming, when he "will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body."301 But it also recalls that “it is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of God”:302

Peter did not yet understand this when he wanted to remain with Christ on the mountain. It has been reserved for you, Peter, but for after death. For now, Jesus says: "Go down to toil on earth, to serve on earth, to be scorned and crucified on earth. Life goes down to be killed; Bread goes down to suffer hunger; the Way goes down to be exhausted on his journey; the Spring goes down to suffer thirst; and you refuse to suffer?"303

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

For your information Jesus was the only one who ascended into Heaven (under his own power as God)
The others you mention plus Mary, of course, did not go to Heaven under their own power. They were assumed into Heaven by the power of God.
Ascension and Assumption are different things.

Wow, I cannot believe that slipped me by.

Another reason why Sacred Scripture is not up to one’s private interpretations.

ps. Ah, thanks Barkw. That answered some other questions. Haven’t gotten to that part on the Catechism yet, just started a week ago.

Thank you,
pax domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[realpatience]

For your information Jesus was the only one who ascended into Heaven (under his own power as God)
The others you mention plus Mary, of course, did not go to Heaven under their own power. They were assumed into Heaven by the power of God.
Ascension and Assumption are different things.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 13. No man hath ascended—but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven. These words, divers times repeated by our Saviour, in their literal and obvious sense, shew that Christ was in heaven, and had a being before he was born of the Virgin Mary, against the Cerinthians, &c. That he descended from heaven: that when he was made man, and conversed with men on earth, he was at the same time in heaven. Some Socinians give us here their groundless fancy, that Jesus after his baptism took a journey to heaven, and returned again before his death. Nor yet would this make him in heaven, when he spoke this to his disciples. (Witham)

Were Moses, Elijah and Enoch assumed into heaven while Jesus was still on earth? Why was King David left behind? Peter said in Acts that “David is not ascended into the heavens.” This was some 50 days after Christ’s resurrection and Peter said David has not gone to heaven. Why is this?

 

[COPLAND_3]

I think the context means no man in a “glorified state” has ascended into Heaven. Enoch and Elijah both ascended bodily, but they have not received their glorified bodies yet, not until they come at the end of time and are killed by the Antichrist and then raised from the dead as we see in Revelation 11. As for Moses, he only appeared on the Mount in spirit, not body.

 

[realpatience]

I think the context means no man in a “glorified state” has ascended into Heaven. Enoch and Elijah both ascended bodily, but they have not received their glorified bodies yet, not until they come at the end of time and are killed by the Antichrist and then raised from the dead as we see in Revelation 11. As for Moses, he only appeared on the Mount in spirit, not body.

Is this the official teaching of the Catholic Church?

Are you saying that Enoch and Elijah are still alive in their mortal flesh and blood bodies now? Are they in heaven? If this is true then they are thousands of years old now. They would be the oldest human beings! Their bodies need oxygen, food and water to live so wherever they are, that place have all these life-giving substances. Very interesting.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Is this the official teaching of the Catholic Church?

Are you saying that Enoch and Elijah are still alive in their mortal flesh and blood bodies now? Are they in heaven? If this is true then they are thousands of years old now. They would be the oldest human beings! Their bodies need oxygen, food and water to live so wherever they are, that place have all these life-giving substances. Very interesting.

No doubt God has perserved their bodies. Scripture says Enoch did not see death as we see in Hebrews 11. Elijah was caught up in a chariot of fire and did not see death. As for being “official Church teaching” it depends on what you mean. As for being the 2 witnesses in Revelation, no, but it is a very traditional belief and understanding, the Church Fathers understood it that way. As for not seeing death, that is Biblical.

 

[realpatience]

No doubt God has perserved their bodies. Scripture says Enoch did not see death as we see in Hebrews 11. Elijah was caught up in a chariot of fire and did not see death. As for being “official Church teaching” it depends on what you mean. As for being the 2 witnesses in Revelation, no, but it is a very traditional belief and understanding, the Church Fathers understood it that way. As for not seeing death, that is Biblical.

I mean about the saying “no man has ascended to heaven,” is it official teaching that this means no man in a glorified state has ascended to heaven?

And about the whereabouts of Enoch and Elijah, does the Catholic Church have an official teaching on that? From what I learned from my Catholic friends, unless a doctrine is given a stamp of approval from the church, it remains speculation. And do I understand it corectly that the teachings found in the Catechism are the official ones?

 

[ddarko]

John 3:13 (Rheims)
And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

I’m a bit stumped on this verse when it comes to Enoch, Eiljah and Moses. Or when Eiljah and Moses appeared to Jesus on the mountain of transfiguration. What is the Church’s stance, or doctrine, concerning this issue?

Actually there is no contradiction if that is what you might be suspecting.

Enoch, Moses, Elija and our Blessed Mother did NOT ascend in to heaven by themselves. God and Jesus took them up in to heaven.

So John 3:13 is very correct. No one has the power to ascend in to heaven except the Son of man (Jesus) who came down from heaven by his own free will.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

For your information Jesus was the only one who ascended into Heaven (under his own power as God)
The others you mention plus Mary, of course, did not go to Heaven under their own power. They were assumed into Heaven by the power of God.
Ascension and Assumption are different things.

Oops, just realized you already answered it. Well put

God Bless

 

[Nita]

…
And about the whereabouts of Enoch and Elijah, does the Catholic Church have an official teaching on that? From what I learned from my Catholic friends, unless a doctrine is given a stamp of approval from the church, it remains speculation. And do I understand it corectly that the teachings found in the Catechism are the official ones?

The Church accepts Scripture. But there’s no dogmatic or doctrinal statement expanding on those Scriptures – that is, explaining further on the manner of “how” they were taken up (other than that it was not by their own power, but by God’s), or their current state of being. At least I’m not aware of any.

Regarding the Catechism:
Yes, they are the official teachings of the Church. But that does not mean that everything in the Catechism is infallible and can never be changed. For example, the Catechism contains a section called “The Precepts of the Church” (#2041-2043). The Church could decide to change these precepts in the future. However, at this time, they are the official precepts and anyone instructing others about them, or any other matters, should teach in conformity with what is in the Catechism.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I mean about the saying “no man has ascended to heaven,” is it official teaching that this means no man in a glorified state has ascended to heaven?

And about the whereabouts of Enoch and Elijah, does the Catholic Church have an official teaching on that? From what I learned from my Catholic friends, unless a doctrine is given a stamp of approval from the church, it remains speculation. And do I understand it corectly that the teachings found in the Catechism are the official ones?

No, its not official teaching that the verse means that, but it is offical that Christ is the first to rise in a glorified state but not the first to be raised from the dead. Sometimes people try to say that the Bible contradicts when it says that Jesus is the first-born from the dead (Rev 1:5). In the same way I see a parallel between that and this verse John 3:13, since there has been at least 2 that we know the Bible says who have ascended up to Heaven, being Enoch and Elijah, but like I mentioned, only Christ has in a glorified body.

As for “speculation” about the Enoch and Elijah thing, no, its not a binding doctrine by any means, but it is rooted in very ancient Catholic understanding.

 

[m8g8]

I thought that before Jesus’ resurrection (when the dead rose from their tombs and Jesus “descended into hell”) no-one could enter Heaven because the ultimate price hadn’t been paid. People were in a sort of “limbo” maybe, or Purgatory.

Christ “descended in to hell” to preach the Gospel and to take them to heaven, which is why the Saints rose from their tombs.

I may have got that wrong, but I think my priest once said that when Christ died, he didn’t go straight to heaven, he went to take the waiting souls to the newly opened gates.

 

[Nita]

I mean about the saying “no man has ascended to heaven,” is it official teaching that this means no man in a glorified state has ascended to heaven?

The only man who “ascended” (went to heaven by His own power) is Jesus; and of course, His body is glorified.

The Church teaches, as dogma, that “Mary, the immaculate perpetually Virgin Mother of God, after the completion of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven”. (Munificentissimus Deus, Nov. 1 1950) This was the official dogmatic declaration. It was made after Pope Pius XII had addressed an official query to all the bishops of the world as to whether they (and their people) desired the definition.
Prior to that, in Mystici Corporis, (1943) Pope Pius XII had stated that Mary “resplendent in glory in body and soul reigns in heaven with her Son”.

We also know from Scripture (Mt. 27:52-53) that after Jesus’ died on the cross, graves were opened and “many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, and coming out of the tombs after His Resurrection came into the holy city and apeared to many”. There’s no official dogmatic statement as to the subsequent state of their bodies, but according Dr. Ott’s *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma *p.209, “(the early Fathers held that) the awakening of the saints was a final resurrection and transfiguration.” (Unfortunately Dr. Ott didn’t include specific references to any of the ECF writings.)