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demerzel85
Guest
Hmm…every single English translation there is at least has…
…everyone who believes in Him [might/may/should] not be lost…
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…everyone who believes in Him [might/may/should] not be lost…
M
mo3
Guest
This is the first time I have seen this statement. I love it! Where did it come from? Would you mind if I used it too?
V
Verbum
Guest
Hi Dem_,
…everyone who believes in Him [might/may/should] not be lost…
You may have noted that these auxiliary verbs (might, etc.) do not exist in Latin and Greek. So it is a non-issue really.
Verbum
…everyone who believes in Him [might/may/should] not be lost…
You may have noted that these auxiliary verbs (might, etc.) do not exist in Latin and Greek. So it is a non-issue really.
Verbum
D
demerzel85
Guest
Doesnt “apollumi” is translated into “Should be perishing” from the Greek?
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mmortal03
Guest
Let me get some things straight and then give you a hypothetical example:
So we know that [might/may/should] DO each have a purpose in English: they each modify the verb they are attached to in a slightly different way (each one, in essence, slightly changes the meaning of the verb they are modifying.) This slightly altered meaning has GOT to be able to be represented in the Greek in some way. (I am sure that those who wrote in Greek knew the difference in their perception of the world between someone who ‘might’ or ‘may’ do something (has no implication of predictability that they will do it), and someone who ‘should’ do something (has an implication of a predictability that they WILL do it in normal circumstances, and only won’t if there is extenuating circumstances).
Given that, how would one represent those differences in the Greek? How would one, in the Greek, represent the meaning of ‘should’ and how would one, in the Greek, represent the meaning of ‘might’ or ‘may’ in relation to the verb ‘have’ that is involved in this passage, and which one of these ways IS represented in John 3:16, or is it completely ambiguous?
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Verbum
Guest
Hi Nmortal,
Of course Greek can express possibility, but not with this construction, which is strictly a purpose clause, and God’s purpose happens.
In English there is a possibility of ambiguity, but frankly I do not see it here. To me, in English as well as in Greek, it is a purpose clause.
Verbum
Of course Greek can express possibility, but not with this construction, which is strictly a purpose clause, and God’s purpose happens.
In English there is a possibility of ambiguity, but frankly I do not see it here. To me, in English as well as in Greek, it is a purpose clause.
Verbum
C
Crumpy
Guest
With reference to the original post:
I studied Latin 42 years ago in high school.
“sed habeat” is the subjunctive, which would be “but may have”
sed = but
habeat = may have , from habeo, habere to have
habeo = I have present tense in Latin and English
habere = to have
…as I recall.
Perhaps some scholar can clarify this or maybe already has. I think the RSV is OK to convey the meaning. I don’t think there’s much difference in the translations. I don’t think there’s any uncertainty in that word, especially when you consider the entire verse.
I don’t think the verse means, Well, God sent His Son so that PERHAPS those who believe in Him would not perish, but might possibly have everlasting life. no, no, no. There’s no doubt here.
I studied Latin 42 years ago in high school.
“sed habeat” is the subjunctive, which would be “but may have”
sed = but
habeat = may have , from habeo, habere to have
habeo = I have present tense in Latin and English
habere = to have
Code:
habes = you have
habet = she, he, it has
habemus = we have
(?) = you [plural] have
habeunt = they havePerhaps some scholar can clarify this or maybe already has. I think the RSV is OK to convey the meaning. I don’t think there’s much difference in the translations. I don’t think there’s any uncertainty in that word, especially when you consider the entire verse.
I don’t think the verse means, Well, God sent His Son so that PERHAPS those who believe in Him would not perish, but might possibly have everlasting life. no, no, no. There’s no doubt here.
M
mmortal03
Guest
Just to summarize all of the popular variations out there, I have also included the popular Protestant variations, and I have grouped them by similar word usage. Please let me know if I missed any other possible interpretation of each particular category, and then tell me if any of these possible interpretations of the English actually don’t fit when interpreting the Greek:
**Protestant Bibles:
Category 1: **(there is a possibility that you will perish even if you believe in him if: ‘should’ means ‘will, more likely than not,’ or ‘will, if God follows the rules,’ or ‘will, if the rules are followed,’ There is no possibility that you will perish even if you believe in him if ‘should’ means ‘are given the chance to, and with no possibility of losing that chance will’)
John 3:16 RSV “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
John 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 ESV “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
Category 2: (there is no a possibility that you will perish if you believe in him, unless there is some conditional definition of what ‘believes in him’ actually means)
John 3:16 NIV "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 NASB "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Catholic Bibles:
**Category 3: **(there is a possibility that you will perish even if you believe in him if: ‘may’ means ‘would maybe’ or it means ‘allowed to under certain conditions’. There is no possibility that you will perish even if you believe in him if: ‘may’ means ‘is definitely allowed to’ or ‘would’)
John 3:16 DRV “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.”
John 3:16 JB “Yes, God lived the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that whoever believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life.”
John 3:16 NJB “For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
John 3:16 CCB “Yes, God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but may have eternal life.”
John 3:16 NRSV “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
**Category 4: **(there is a possibility that you will perish, even if you believe in him if: ‘might’ means ‘would maybe’. There is no possibility that you will perish if you believe in him if: ‘might’ means ‘would’)
John 3:16 NAB “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.”
**Protestant Bibles:
Category 1: **(there is a possibility that you will perish even if you believe in him if: ‘should’ means ‘will, more likely than not,’ or ‘will, if God follows the rules,’ or ‘will, if the rules are followed,’ There is no possibility that you will perish even if you believe in him if ‘should’ means ‘are given the chance to, and with no possibility of losing that chance will’)
John 3:16 RSV “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
John 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 ESV “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
Category 2: (there is no a possibility that you will perish if you believe in him, unless there is some conditional definition of what ‘believes in him’ actually means)
John 3:16 NIV "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 NASB "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Catholic Bibles:
**Category 3: **(there is a possibility that you will perish even if you believe in him if: ‘may’ means ‘would maybe’ or it means ‘allowed to under certain conditions’. There is no possibility that you will perish even if you believe in him if: ‘may’ means ‘is definitely allowed to’ or ‘would’)
John 3:16 DRV “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.”
John 3:16 JB “Yes, God lived the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that whoever believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life.”
John 3:16 NJB “For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
John 3:16 CCB “Yes, God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but may have eternal life.”
John 3:16 NRSV “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
**Category 4: **(there is a possibility that you will perish, even if you believe in him if: ‘might’ means ‘would maybe’. There is no possibility that you will perish if you believe in him if: ‘might’ means ‘would’)
John 3:16 NAB “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.”
V
Verbum
Guest
Hui Crumpy,
I don’t think the verse means, Well, God sent His Son so that PERHAPS those who believe in Him would not perish, but might possibly have everlasting life. no, no, no. There’s no doubt here.
An ounce of common sense goes a long way.
Verbum
I don’t think the verse means, Well, God sent His Son so that PERHAPS those who believe in Him would not perish, but might possibly have everlasting life. no, no, no. There’s no doubt here.
An ounce of common sense goes a long way.
Verbum
M
mmortal03
Guest
Yeah, I don’t think anyone is saying that, I think it is along the lines of:Hui Crumpy,
I don’t think the verse means, Well, God sent His Son so that PERHAPS those who believe in Him would not perish, but might possibly have everlasting life. no, no, no. There’s no doubt here.
An ounce of common sense goes a long way.
Verbum
God sent His Son so that those who believe in Him would HAVE THE CHANCE TO not perish, but HAVE THE CHANCE TO have everlasting life.
or
God sent His Son so that CONDITIONALLY those who believe in Him would not perish, but CONDITIONALLY have everlasting life.
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