John 3:18

[bbas_64]

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

This would seem to say that people who do not believe in Jesus are condemned but we don’t teach that. What does John 3:18 mean?

Greg

Good Day, Greg

Very good question,

Augustine on this passage from his teaching to the Church in the Tractates on John:

1. “For God sent not His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world through Him may be saved.” So far, then, as it lies in the physician, He is come to heal the sick. He that will not observe the orders of the physician destroys himself. He is come a Saviour to the world: why is he called the Saviour of the world, but that He is come to save the world, not to judge the world? Thou wilt not be saved by Him; thou shall be judged of thyself And why do I say, “shall be judged”?** See what He says: “He that believeth on Him is not judged, but he that believeth not.” What dost thou expect He is going to say, but “is judged”? “Already,” saith He, “has been judged.” The judgment has not yet appeared, but already it has taken place. For the Lord knoweth them that are His: He knows who are persevering for the crown**, and who for the flame; knows the wheat on His threshing-floor, and knows the chaff; knows the good corn, and knows the tares. He that believeth not is already judged. Why judged? “Because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.”

Seems here that the Judgment has already happend and they are condemned although not realized by them non the less condemned already.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ahimsaman72]

bbas 64:

Good Day, Greg

Very good question,

Augustine on this passage from his teaching to the Church in the Tractates on John:

Seems here that the Judgment has already happend and they are condemned although not realized by them non the less condemned already.

Peace to u,

Bill

sounds real close to predestination I would have to agree.

 

[Melchior]

Greg_McPherran:

The key is that Jesus words are extremely strong.

Where would this put many people in America today for example, who clearly are aware of the Church and Jesus and yet do not believe in Him?

I also don’t understand “already condemned”. I understand there is always a chance to repent so I don’t understand how someone can “already” be condemned.

I also think we need to be very careful about watering down Jesus’ teachings.

Greg

I think this helps understand the context of the wide and narrow gates. Many enter through the wide gate. The strong language of Jesus in both passages would seem to indicate that there are many who are condemned in their unbelief, as much as we don’t like it(and we shouldn’t). But it is one of those concepts that seems very clear, yet we try to harmonize it with our limited human sensibilites rather than reconciling with the mystery. There are things that seem unfair to us, but we are not God and can never know His ways completely. That is why the Augustine quote is so good. He doesn’t try to rationalize. He simply accepts and explains without expaining away.

Mel

 

[bbas_64]

ahimsaman72:

sounds real close to predestination I would have to agree.

Good Day, Ashimsamam

Slow down there a bit, as some of things that were taught to the christians in the time of Augustine seem a hard pill to take by some christians in this day and age. But, I do agree we can get there from here as we see in many of his writtings. :yup:

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ahimsaman72]

bbas 64:

Good Day, Ashimsamam

Slow down there a bit, as some of things that were taught to the christians in the time of Augustine seem a hard pill to take by some christians in this day and age. But, I do agree we can get there from here as we see in many of his writtings. :yup:

Peace to u,

Bill

Hello Bill! I hear ya. At one point I believed God’s sovereignty led to salvation of all men (universalism), but now I have come back on that a bit and see some of the fallacies with that view and embrace Calvinism. I can hear everyone typing their heated replies now!

Good day to you…

Woody

 

[tru_dvotion]

This is what the Protestants do. They take a sentence from the Bible, isolate it and then flog it to death!

18
Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Here is the key: Please read on:

19
And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.

20
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.

21
But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

What does it mean to believe? If somebody tells me there is a bear behind the bush and I walk right into the bush, I did not believe him. But if I stay away, obviously I believed him. Same thing with John 3:18. Believing > acting on it. The act of believing implies acting on the belief. Those who do not act did not believe in the first place.

 

[bbas_64]

tru_dvotion:

This is what the Protestants do. They take a sentence from the Bible, isolate it and then flog it to death!

18
Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Here is the key: Please read on:

19
And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.

20
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.

21
But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

What does it mean to believe? If somebody tells me there is a bear behind the bush and I walk right into the bush, I did not believe him. But if I stay away, obviously I believed him. Same thing with John 3:18. Believing > acting on it. The act of believing implies acting on the belief. Those who do not act did not believe in the first place.

Good Day, Tru

You could tell me there was I bear behind a bush, I could still walk over to the bush. That does not mean I did not believe, you it just means that the information you shared did not affect my course of action there could be many reasons for my actions. Not the least of which is that I know more about bears than you do.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[bbas_64]

ahimsaman72:

Hello Bill! I hear ya. At one point I believed God’s sovereignty led to salvation of all men (universalism), but now I have come back on that a bit and see some of the fallacies with that view and embrace Calvinism. I can hear everyone typing their heated replies now!

Good day to you…

Woody

Praise the Lord Woody:dancing: may in fact be heated replies, but hey God is not done with them yet.

“Having life and spiritual blessings prepared, before the world, for us in the world, according to election;”

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Antonio_B]

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

This would seem to say that people who do not believe in Jesus are condemned but we don’t teach that. What does John 3:18 mean?

Greg

Ahh, perhaps a bit of biblical exegesis would help you understand the true meaning of John’s words!

Antonio

 

[Antonio_B]

Melchior:

Greg,

Why wouldn’t you believe that? If no one comes to the Father but through Christ, then that would indicate those who don’t will not be saved. I mean this sincerely, if we can be saved if we reject Christ then why be a Christian? It becomes meaningless.

I think it could not be more clear. If you don’t believe in Christ you are condemned. I cannot fathom that the Catholic Church does not teach this. If I am wrong and she does then my journey stops here and now since scripture over and over again makes clear that rejecting Christ is damnable.

Mel

Last time I checked Nostra Aetate made it clear we do not believe Muslims or Budhists, or Confucianists are going to hell, and yet they don’t believe in Christ. Now, does that mean the Church is not taking John 3:18 seriously? Ahh, that’s why you need to do a bit of biblical exegesis to find the answer!

Antonio

 

[Greg_McPherran]

ahimsaman72:

but now I have come back on that a bit and see some of the fallacies with that view and embrace Calvinism. I can hear everyone typing their heated replies now!

Well, we do accept predestination, but not predestination to hell. If you look carefully at Jesus’ words, He doesn’t say that people who don’t believe at some point in their lives are condemned. He seems to indicate that if you die not believing then you were not predestined to Heaven. Predestination to hell would mean we have no free will, and I think that is one reason why the Church does not accept Calvinism, because that goes a bit too far by saying we have no free will.

Granted, free will and predestination are mysterious.

Greg

 

[Melchior]

Antonio B:

Last time I checked Nostra Aetate made it clear we do not believe Muslims or Budhists, or Confucianists are going to hell, and yet they don’t believe in Christ. Now, does that mean the Church is not taking John 3:18 seriously? Ahh, that’s why you need to do a bit of biblical exegesis to find the answer!

Antonio

You show me how the Bible teaches that those who believe in false gods and pagan religions that deny Christ can be saved and I will show you how the entire message of Salvation in Christ becomes meaningless. Why evangelize? Why tell people about Christ if they don’t need him? All of scripture, in context, militates against this type of universalism.

To put a sharper point on it, it makes a mockery of Christ’s death on the Cross as well as all the martyrs who died to bring the Gospel to unbelievers. Why bring it to them if they don’t need it?

I am not familiar with Nostra Aetate. Could you provide a link? Is it an ex-cathedra pronouncement?

Mel

 

[tru_dvotion]

bbas 64:

Good Day, Tru

You could tell me there was I bear behind a bush, I could still walk over to the bush. That does not mean I did not believe, you it just means that the information you shared did not affect my course of action there could be many reasons for my actions. Not the least of which is that I know more about bears than you do. Bill

… and I suppose knowing more about bears is a good thing? :ehh:

No, I understand what you mean, but the analogy I used has been taken out of context. It still remains, you have not believed, or comprehended the message. (There is a bear behind the bush)Actually, I do now about bears… and most of the people who suffer bear attacks are the ones who have grown accustomed to bears. These are the people, who will not listen to a bear warning, because they believe they have the whole bear thing down path. But thanks for the comment. You made me smile.

 

[Antonio_B]

Melchior:

You show me how the Bible teaches that those who believe in false gods and pagan religions that deny Christ can be saved and I will show you how the entire message of Salvation in Christ becomes meaningless. Why evangelize? Why tell people about Christ if they don’t need him? All of scripture, in context, militates against this type of universalism.

You have good and valid questions but you show me where it says that Christ’s supreme sacrifice on the cross took place just to save Christians? Three hours of misery on the cross, having been flogged, mocked and spit upon, and He died only for Christians? Does that make sense to you? Does it make sense to you that Our Lord, whose salvation is universal, and who loves all human beings, would want the eternal damnation of 1 billion Muslims, 15 million Jews, counteless Buddhists and Hindus?

Why evangelize? Because in the Catholic Church we find the “fullness of salvation” since the Church is Christ in space and time, and Christ is the Way, the Truth and Life. Tell me, do you make a difference between those who know Christ is God and the very fountain of salvation and nevertheless reject Him and those who simply do not know Christ through no fault of their own?

To put a sharper point on it, it makes a mockery of Christ’s death on the Cross as well as all the martyrs who died to bring the Gospel to unbelievers. Why bring it to them if they don’t need it?

Ahh, but was Christ’s death on the Cross meant to save just us?

I am not familiar with Nostra Aetate. Could you provide a link? Is it an ex-cathedra pronouncement?

Nostra Aetate is one of the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council dealing with the relationship between Catholicism and the rest of the religions of the world. In that document the Church acknowledges that there are glimpses of the truth found in other religions though not the totality of truth.
Mel

Antonio

 

[Greg_McPherran]

What does John 3:18 mean?

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

What does “already been condemned” mean?

 

[tru_dvotion]

What does “already been condemned” mean?

Jesus means “God saves”, therefore the “name” means the person of Jesus. So if you believe in the name, you will also believe in what the person represents. Those who do not believe that Jesus can save them: their unbelief automatically passes a judgment on them, in other words “already condemns” them, because they did not believe Jesus could save them.

It works like this: Only one person can extend a hand to a drowning man and the man can be pulled up from the torrent if he grabs a hold of that extended hand. But if he says, this cannot help me, and does not grab a hold of the hand he will most certainly drown. He condemned himself to die already, by not grabbing a hold of the extended hand. His refusal to take the hand brought on a certain consequence. So the consequence is built into the action: If he takes the hand, he is saved. If he does not take the hand he drowns.

 

[tru_dvotion]

The homily of Fr. Jim Mazzone Christ the King Church, from Worcester MA is developed around the same passage. Link is given at the end.

"There are many themes here to develop and preach on – especially the divine initiative to Love from God, and the condemnation of self through human choice

HOMILY: However, I am pulling out of this passage the them of darkness and light to preach on this week .I think it is obvious through the study of human nature – and by simply being a sinful, human being, that the attraction to the darkness can be very real and powerful. As St. Paul states – The very things I do not want to do, I do, and the very things I do want to do, I do not. Everyone can identify with this and the choices to be made are clearly defined between darkness and light.

I think the more complex problem of choice that exists today are competing sources of light – or that which appears as light. They are not evil – just lesser goods that can be attractive enough to steal away our attention to the true light – Jesus Christ.

This weekend I will use a story from my own life to illustrate this.

Continued

 

[tru_dvotion]

When I was a kid I had a notorious reputation in my family for unintentionally demolishing or losing an array of manual or power tools that I happened to get my hands on from the workshop that my father built in our cellar. As the years progressed – and pull chords from chain saws and lawnmowers were promptly ripped out – and tools frequently disappeared – my tool-borrowing privileges became more and more restricted until I was simply forbidden to even look at any items from the workshop.

The last straw involved the borrowing of a flashlight. We have a rather long, dark closet in our cellar which never had a light installed in it. In order to find something in this closet one would need to use a flashlight and of course, the flashlight was an inventoried item from the forbidden workshop. Rather than risk the punishment of having both hands cut off and being thrown inside a Turkish prison for borrowing something without permission, I remember ambling upstairs one morning to ask my father permission to use his flashlight to search for our set of yard jarts (what I did with our yard jarts is another disaster story which will have to wait for another time).

My venture was successful and I can recall happily sprinting out of the closet, putting the flashlight down somewhere in the cellar, and running over to the house of my best friend. Of course, later that day the old man needed his flashlight and it was nowhere to be found. Did I take it out of the cellar? No. Then where was it?

We have all been in this predicament at one time or another in our lives. We look at a space of about 400 square feet and we know that the object we have lost is somewhere in front of us. BUT WHERE!? I looked for a solid hour. EVERYWHERE. I could only conclude that it had miraculously dematerialized.

It was only when night had fallen and when I had entered a the darkened cellar that night that I saw a single, weak, beam of light shooting across the cellar from between two boxes.

The light is easy to see in the darkness. The contrast is strong. Still, we can clearly make a bad choice between the darkness and the light. However, in the competition of daylight, it is easy to have our attention stolen from the true source of light – Jesus Christ.

http://members.aol.com/homilies/blnt4.html

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Thank you tru,

Good insight.

tru_dvotion:

their unbelief automatically passes a judgment on them, in other words “already condemns” them, because they did not believe Jesus could save them.

1. Yes, but “already condemned” sounds like it is permanent. Condemnation sounds permanent to me. Yet, if someone does not believe, isn’t there a possibility that they could believe and repent later in life? When Jesus says “…but whoever does not believe…” is He referring to not believing at any time in ones life or is He referring to dying in a state of unbelief? By referring to condemnation I would think He would be referring only to dying in a state of unbelief but His words don’t seem to emphasize that.
2. Also what does this mean about many other people and religions who do not believe in Jesus even after hearing about Him? Jesus’ statement would seem to indicate that they are condemned, but I don’t think the Church teaches that. How are we to understand this?

Greg

 

[tru_dvotion]

1. Yes, but “already condemned” sounds like it is permanent. Condemnation sounds permanent to me. Yet, if someone does not believe, isn’t there a possibility that they could believe and repent later in life? When Jesus says “…but whoever does not believe…” is He referring to not believing at any time in ones life or is He referring to dying in a state of unbelief? By referring to condemnation I would think He would be referring only to dying in a state of unbelief but His words don’t seem to emphasize that.

I agree. All we have to do is to look to the Scriptures for answer. There are persons in the Bible, who had the Spirit of God upon them at one point and lost it at a later point. So I would tend to believe (no pun) that this would refer to the final outcome of our belief. To continue the same argument, those persons who were once enemies of Christ turned around and became saints like Paul. So it could be said that Paul at one time was condemned by his own unbelief but at the end saved by his belief in Christ Jesus.

**This brings to mind the “Book of Life” and what it means not being entered in the Book of Life: I do not believe this means a predestined circumstance. All this means that God knew before what final choice each and every one of us will make. **

So getting back to this question of believing or not believing, it has to refer to the final outcome; otherwise our entire life journey would be rather redundant and pointless.

---