John 3:5 and alternate interpretations

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I was discussing Baptism with a friend today. He brought a rather odd understanding of John 3:5. While Jesus says that we must be born again of Water and Spirit, he has concluded that the Water is not literal Water, but the “Living Water” that is Jesus. I had the same discussion with another friend, who just said that the water represents the Word of God, and that a water baptism has no real effect on Salvation. What would be your responses to these ideas that my friends have expressed to me?
 
I had a pretty radical conversion experience in Aug. of 1973…I was encouraged to get into the scriptures starting with the gospels…So I started in John…At chapter three I read Nicodemus,s response about going back into the womb…Then I read you need to be born of water and the spirit…Water ie natural birth(womb) and spiritual birth(spirit) I thought. Just made sense to me from the surrounding verses…Two types of births,one natural and one born anew spiritual.
 
Disclaimer: I have an interest in theology and apologetics, but I can’t guarantee that my responses are 100% true - I am no authority. I just offer what I feel I could say at this time.

Baptism most certainly is a means through which God confers saving grace. It seems as though you have been talking to some well meaning though misguided protestant friends. In my experience protestants deny the salvific nature of baptism because they don’t want to minimalize or subvert the saving power of the cross… The truth of the matter is that baptism saves only inasmuch as it unites a believer through faith to Jesus’ work on the cross. Romans 6, 3-8 says" Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."
So to answer your first friend, the water spoken of in John 3.5 is BOTH literal water and Christ. A baptism of water draws on the grace obtained by Jesus, the Living Water.

A beliver’s baptism is the normal way God makes it possible for a person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Its salvific nature is attested to in 1 Peter, where after describing how God saved Noah in the ark (a type of/symbol for the Church) and passing him through the floodwaters he says in verse 3.21 “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (poster added emphasis).

I am not sure how to answer your second friend. It just seems like a way to avoid having ti admit that God distributes grace through the Sacraments. Point him/her to what the Word actually says about baptism.

For more info, see: catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp
Also check the Catechism. There are online versions.

Blessins,
thepottersclay
 
Cruxis117 said:
I was discussing Baptism with a friend today. He brought a rather odd understanding of John 3:5. While Jesus says that we must be born again of Water and Spirit, he has concluded that the Water is not literal Water, but the “Living Water” that is Jesus. I had the same discussion with another friend, who just said that the water represents the Word of God, and that a water baptism has no real effect on Salvation. What would be your responses to these ideas that my friends have expressed to me?
Click to expand...
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

I would point out that John the Baptist used real water to baptize people, and one of those people was Jesus!! We are to do what Jesus did: He set the example and demonstrated that unequivicably real water was to be used to baptize us in order to cleanse us of the stain of orginal sin. Only when we are baptized by water, and validly so, by repeating the words that Jesus commanded His Apostles to use (In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) are we cleansed of original sin and the Holy Spirit comes upon us.

Recall that invalid baptisms not using the above did not allow the gift of the Holy Spirit to come to a person.

Acts 19 – 1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. 2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?" They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 Then he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They answered, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.[/INDENT[/COLOR]

And if anyone is baptized without using the words below (some only believe in using the name of Jesus only) that is an invalid baptism and that is why the above baptism did not yield the Holy Spirit. Water and the Trinity formula is required.

Matthew 28:19 NRSA
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Also, the Didache (teaching of the 12 Aposltes) states as follows:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

This is how Christians were validly baptized. Anything else does not constitue a valid baptism.

Hope that helps 🙂

God bless,
CEM​
 
Cruxis117 said:
I was discussing Baptism with a friend today. He brought a rather odd understanding of John 3:5. While Jesus says that we must be born again of Water and Spirit, he has concluded that the Water is not literal Water, but the “Living Water” that is Jesus. I had the same discussion with another friend, who just said that the water represents the Word of God, and that a water baptism has no real effect on Salvation. What would be your responses to these ideas that my friends have expressed to me?
Click to expand...
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

I would point out that John the Baptist used real water to baptize people, and one of those people was Jesus!! We are to do what Jesus did: He set the example and demonstrated that unequivicably real water was to be used to baptize us in order to cleanse us of the stain of orginal sin. Only when we are baptized by water, and validly so, by repeating the words that Jesus commanded His Apostles to use (In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) are we cleansed of original sin and the Holy Spirit comes upon us.

Recall that invalid baptisms not using the above did not allow the gift of the Holy Spirit to come to a person.

Acts 19 – 1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. 2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?" They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 Then he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They answered, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And if anyone is baptized without using the words below (some only believe in using the name of Jesus only) that is an invalid baptism and that is why the above baptism did not yield the Holy Spirit. Water and the Trinity formula is required.

Matthew 28:19 NRSA
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Also, the Didache (teaching of the 12 Aposltes) states as follows:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

This is how Christians were validly baptized. Anything else does not constitue a valid baptism.

Hope that helps 🙂

God bless,
CEM
 
Peter: Baptism now saves you.

Paul: Baptism is the new circumcision.

Baptism is a physical and necessary means to enter into the body of Christ.
 
Hiskid1973 said:
I had a pretty radical conversion experience in Aug. of 1973…I was encouraged to get into the scriptures starting with the gospels…So I started in John…At chapter three I read Nicodemus,s response about going back into the womb…Then I read you need to be born of water and the spirit…**Water ie natural birth(womb) and spiritual birth(spirit) I thought. Just made sense to me **from the surrounding verses…Two types of births,one natural and one born anew spiritual.
Click to expand...
Then according to you what Jesus actually said was “Unless one is born naturally and spiritually he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Everyone is born naturally so who is the “unless” Jesus is referring to?
 
Cruxis117 said:
I was discussing Baptism with a friend today. He brought a rather odd understanding of John 3:5. While Jesus says that we must be born again of Water and Spirit, he has concluded that the Water is not literal Water, but the “Living Water” that is Jesus. I had the same discussion with another friend, who just said that the water represents the Word of God, and that a water baptism has no real effect on Salvation. What would be your responses to these ideas that my friends have expressed to me?
Click to expand...
This is a pretty common objection from many evangelicals and fundamentalists. It comes from an anti-sacramental theology that eschews anything physical in favor of an entirely spiritual relationship with Jesus. I’m not saying Catholicism doesn’t also emphasize a spiritual relationship, but when you look at the sacraments they are all very tactile – they all include physical matter whether it be water, oil, bread or wine.

So to make things fit in with their theology when most Protestants see something in the Bible that literally contradicts their theology they have only one choice and that is to read it in a non-literal way and to strip it of some of its obvious and Catholic meaning.

ChadS
 
Third_Day said:
Then according to you what Jesus actually said was “Unless one is born naturally and spiritually he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Everyone is born naturally so who is the “unless” Jesus is referring to?
Click to expand...
He was explaining “born again”… Your born once.Your spirit needs rebirth…We don’t automatically go to heaven …We need to choose to follow Christ…We
have to repent and follow Him…Don’t see what is hard about it…He even says in the next verse that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit…This exact experience radically changed my life…
 
Cruxis117 said:
I was discussing Baptism with a friend today. He brought a rather odd understanding of John 3:5. While Jesus says that we must be born again of Water and Spirit, he has concluded that the Water is not literal Water, but the “Living Water” that is Jesus. I had the same discussion with another friend, who just said that the water represents the Word of God, and that a water baptism has no real effect on Salvation. What would be your responses to these ideas that my friends have expressed to me?
Click to expand...
This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord. (1 John 5:6-8)

The Spirit brings Christ to the world through the water of Baptism and the blood of the Eucharist. It is literal water, but not water alone.
 
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