John 3 and baptism

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In the gospel of John Chapter 3 When he speaks of one being born of water and the spirit I always took it to mean Baptism. This other gentleman threw in the proposition that Jesus meant water when you were born and the Spirit when you were “Born agian”. What is the Churchs’ position on this particular scripture and what would be the best thing for me to say to convice this gentleman of it? Thanks and God bless.
 
Montie Claunch:
In the gospel of John Chapter 3 When he speaks of one being born of water and the spirit I always took it to mean Baptism. This other gentleman threw in the proposition that Jesus meant water when you were born and the Spirit when you were “Born agian”. What is the Churchs’ position on this particular scripture and what would be the best thing for me to say to convice this gentleman of it? Thanks and God bless.
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The Greek term “anothen” is the term of confusion from John 3 - it means both “again” and “from above”. Jesus meant you must be born “from above” while Nicodemus misunderstood him to mean born"again" which is why he asks the ridiculous question,“How can one enter again his mothers womb?” To which Jesus tells him “whatever is born of flesh is flesh” basically trying to convey the point that no matter how many times you are born a flesh birth you remain flesh. What you need is to be born “from above”.
I have heard some non-Catholics contend that to be “born of water” refers to the breaking of the water in a natural birth. Such a contention is entirely unfounded and without precedent. Other terms are used biblically, but never this one.
In addition, if one carefully compares John 3:5 with Titus 3:5 it becomes increasingly apparent that born of water has nothing to do with natural birth.
Unless you are born of water and the holy Spirit (John 3:5)
the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit (Titus3:5)
Both of these verses are speaking to how eternal life is aquired, so the topics are identical. The holy Spirit portion is virtually identical and the parallel water/bath terms are, therefore, equivalent in meaning.
It is just not tenable to hold that the “bath of rebirth” is part of the physical delivery. It is most likely a reference to baptism…
 
If water refers to natural birth (when you were born), why does Jesus make entrance into heaven conditional upon it?

What happens if you were never born?

It doesn’t make sense. So, why would Jesus have said it?
 
This “amniotic fluid” interpretation is a novel one that has been created to get around the clear sense of regenerative baptism found in John 3:5. As was pointed out above, it has no support from other biblical text, and is unknown by the Early Church Fathers, who always took it as meaning regenerative water baptism.

Even the context of where the passage is placed indicates it’s baptisimal significance: in the passage just previous to this, Jesus is baptised; in the passage right after, Jesus and his disciples are baptising. It’s so obvious as to be undeniable --unless you choose to, based on a misinterpretion of John 3:5.
 
Montie << This other gentleman threw in the proposition that Jesus meant water when you were born and the Spirit when you were “Born agian”. >>

Another problem with that is the grammar. I don’t know Greek, but from what I understand the phrase in Greek is “born of water and Spirit” – the “born again” or “born from above” of John 3:3,7 is equated with the “born of water and Spirit” of John 3:5. Only one new birth there.

The “born of water and Spirit” of verse 5 is contrasted to the physical birth of verse 4, not equated. The context of “water” in John’s Gospel also shows this is Baptism (John 1:29ff, 3:22ff), not to mention the unanimous testimony of early Christianity.

One objection is that Nicodemus would not have understood trinitarian Baptism which was later instituted (Matthew 28:19).

Phil P
 
Spirit and water are seen together throughout scripture.
Working our way back through salvation history:

A. I’d take Jn 3:5 as referring to our baptism. Sprit and water are explicitly mentioned
B. Jesus’ baptism: Jn 1:31, Lk 3:21-22, Mk 1:9-11, Mat 3:16-17. The water of the Jordan and the Sprit as a dove
C. Moses - Red Sea and the Spirit in the cloud and column of fire. Ex 14:19, 1Cor 10:2
D. Noah - Spirit represented by the dove over the waters of the flood. Gen 8:6-12, 1Pt 3:20-22
E. God - The Spirit over the waters of creation. Gen 1:2

In addition, the first few chapters of John are full of water/baptisimal references:
Jn1:26, 33; 2:7; 3:5, 22, 23, 23, 26; 4:1,6

The discourse with Nichodemus is Jn 3:1-21.
v22 says: After this Jesus and His disciples went into the land of Judea, there He remained with them and baptized.

These are three compelling facts for me.

Peace,
Dave
 
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