John 5:39 vs. John 7:52

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John 5:39 is sometimes (frequently?) used in defense of a “bible only” perspective, I guess primarily because Jesus seems to be using the imperative to tell others to use scripture. (Same in KJV and DRB.)

[BIBLEDRB]John 5:39[/BIBLEDRB]

Would you consider John 7:52 as an effective counter to this?

[BIBLEDRB]John 7:52[/BIBLEDRB]

As always, talking to “bible only” believers.
 
John 5:39 is sometimes (frequently?) used in defense of a “bible only” perspective, I guess primarily because Jesus seems to be using the imperative to tell others to use scripture. (Same in KJV and DRB.)

[BIBLEDRB]John 5:39[/BIBLEDRB]

Would you consider John 7:52 as an effective counter to this?

[BIBLEDRB]John 7:52[/BIBLEDRB]

As always, talking to “bible only” believers.
In countering the argument that John 5:39 can be used to prove sola scriptura, it’s worth pointing out that in the Greek, the 2nd person plural imperative and present indicative are identical; thus the mis-translation in the KJV. The translation doesn’t make sense as an imperative; “Search the scriptures, for in them you have eternal life,” a positive statement would make more sense. The correct translation is "You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and they are they (KJV; IOW, it is these same scriptures) that testify of me (and you can’t even see it!).

As you point out, John 7:52 is an effective illustration that inaccurate interpretation can be derived when scripture is the only source of information.
 
John 5:39 is sometimes (frequently?) used in defense of a “bible only” perspective, I guess primarily because Jesus seems to be using the imperative to tell others to use scripture. (Same in KJV and DRB.)

[BIBLEDRB]John 5:39[/BIBLEDRB]

Would you consider John 7:52 as an effective counter to this?

[BIBLEDRB]John 7:52[/BIBLEDRB]

As always, talking to “bible only” believers.
Good try: even so, it escaped the word “testimony” which drives us to Tradition.
 
John 5:39 is sometimes (frequently?) used in defense of a “bible only” perspective, I guess primarily because Jesus seems to be using the imperative to tell others to use scripture. (Same in KJV and DRB.)
To be brief: in the context, Jesus is referring to the Old Testament. (Obviously, the New Testament did not exist yet at the time He said that.) Does that mean we should hold to sola Vetus Testamentum or OT-only?
 
I would point out Jesus doesn’t say search “only” Scriptures. They are adding that idea to his words. Catholics search the Scriptures too.
 
As you point out, John 7:52 is an effective illustration that inaccurate interpretation can be derived when scripture is the only source of information.
Is it a fair observation that Protestants jump from translation to another depending on the point they want to argue?

And doesn’t that become an issue of “Which bible?” for the “bible only” crowd?
 
Is it fair to say that the Pharisees and Sadducees held a “bible only” perspective?
 
Perhaps, but only if you bear in mind that with the Sadducees, it was Torah only.
Two cents: we don’t really know for sure whether the Sadducees indeed held a ‘Torah-only’ view. For one the very few sources which say or imply that they do (some of the ECFs) are rather late, and it seems possible that they have confused the (by then extinct) Sadducees with Samaritans. Some point to a quote by Josephus (Antiquities 13.297), but a close reading shows that all he talks about there is how the Sadducees do not accept Pharisaic traditions.
 
Is it fair to say that the Pharisees and Sadducees held a “bible only” perspective?
If by ‘Bible only’ you mean something like the stereotypical Sola Scriptura, where the Scriptures are thought to interpret themselves and is to be the sole authority, then not exactly.

For one, it is well-known that the Pharisees valued teachings handed down from teacher to pupil by word of mouth on the same par as the written Word: the later Rabbis of the Talmudic era had the concept of the ‘Oral Torah’, handed down from God to Moses at the same time the latter had received the written Torah in Mount Sinai, which had then been passed down from generation to generation.

As for the Sadducees, we know at least that they did not accept Pharisaic traditions: we can infer that they probably had special teachings of their own. It is usually thought that their tradition has a more literal way of interpreting the Law (compared to the Pharisees, which were generally looser and more lenient on a number of points), but we aren’t 100% sure.

IMHO the Karaites would probably fit your description clorer.
 
Is it a fair observation that Protestants jump from translation to another depending on the point they want to argue?

And doesn’t that become an issue of “Which bible?” for the “bible only” crowd?
In my experience as a Protestant, no, people pick a translation and cling to it rather tenaciously. Some may use a variety of translations for different purposes, but still they carry with them only one translation. To any who want to defend Sola Scriptura using John 5:39, it probably doesn’t make much difference whether it is an imperative or an indicative statement. I don’t see how it proves Sola Scriptura, anyway. But then I come from a United Methodist background where the Bible was placed first, but where tradition, reason and experience were also important in doing theology.
 
If by ‘Bible only’ you mean something like the stereotypical Sola Scriptura, where the Scriptures are thought to interpret themselves and is to be the sole authority, then not exactly.

For one, it is well-known that the Pharisees valued teachings handed down from teacher to pupil by word of mouth on the same par as the written Word: the later Rabbis of the Talmudic era had the concept of the ‘Oral Torah’, handed down from God to Moses at the same time the latter had received the written Torah in Mount Sinai, which had then been passed down from generation to generation.

As for the Sadducees, we know at least that they did not accept Pharisaic traditions: we can infer that they probably had special teachings of their own. It is usually thought that their tradition has a more literal way of interpreting the Law (compared to the Pharisees, which were generally looser and more lenient on a number of points), but we aren’t 100% sure.

IMHO the Karaites would probably fit your description clorer.
I guess I meant the following:
Pharisees: they use the “search the scriptures” phrase like it is a rule of faith, and one that settles matters of faith (revelation?). This seems similar to me to the way (some) Protestants invoke the bible. If (some) Protestants use John 5:39 as a proof text, is it not appropriate to point out that the Pharisees followed the same path and ended up in the wrong place.

Sadducees: held to a “Torah only” view/scheme/belief/system. To me, this is like the Protestants tossing the Deuteros. I imagine that the Sadducees thought they adhered to a “purer scripture” by leaving out scrolls that were under some dispute. Again, echoes of Protestantism.

I haven’t really looked into the matter, but I imagine that all faith systems/denominations rely on traditions to some extent, even the “sola” types, regardless of claims to the contrary.

The point of my question was to explore possible similarities between Protestants and OT religious sects that obviously went astray all the while believing they interpreted scripture correctly.
 
Sadducees: held to a “Torah only” view/scheme/belief/system. To me, this is like the Protestants tossing the Deuteros. I imagine that the Sadducees thought they adhered to a “purer scripture” by leaving out scrolls that were under some dispute. Again, echoes of Protestantism.
Again, it’s a common opinion but we don’t know for sure. Repeating my earlier reply:

Two cents: we don’t really know for sure whether the Sadducees indeed held a ‘Torah-only’ view. For one the very few sources which say or imply that they do (some of the ECFs) are rather late, and it seems possible that they have confused the (by then extinct) Sadducees with Samaritans. Some point to a quote by Josephus (Antiquities 13.297), but a close reading shows that all he talks about there is how the Sadducees do not accept Pharisaic traditions.

Here is the quote:

What I would now explain is this, that the Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the laws of Moses; and for that reason it is that the Sadducees reject them, and say that we are to esteem those observances to be obligatory which are in the written word, but are not to observe what are derived from the tradition of our forefathers.

The “tradition of our forefathers” that Josephus talks about here seems to be the same as the “observances…from their fathers which are not written in the laws of Moses,” which the Pharisees promulgated. The quote doesn’t imply anything about canons of Scripture, but is talking about Sadducean rejection of traditions held by Pharisees.

Stephen B. Chapman writes in The Law and the Prophets: A Study in Old Testament Canon Formation:

The evidence that the Sadducees did not accept the prophetic books has long rested upon meager references by Origen and Jerome (Origen, Against Celsus, 1.49; Jerome, Commentary on Matthew, on 22:31), the nature of which might just as well indicate a later confusion (second or third century A.D.) of the Sadducees with the Samaritans (For references, LeMoyne, Sadducéen, 142-44. Cf. Sundberg, Church 77-78. The confusion may have arisen from the actual fusion of these two groups in this period).
Building on the work of J. Maier (J. Maier, Auseinandersetzung), Carr has concluded that despite this possible confusion, and the complete absence of any confirmatory evidence in the writings of Josephus, early Mishnaic regulations indicate that priestly circles including the Sadducees ‘revered the Torah alone.’ (Carr, Canonization, 36 n. 39. Carr terms this absence ‘conspicuous’, but explains it away as the consequence of Josephus’ own goal of presenting a unified Judaism with a single canon. Contra Carr, it would seem a rather weak point for Josephus to make if it was so patently untrue.)
However, it is clear in Josephus’ work that the issue of contention between the Pharisees and the Sadducees did not have to do with a different scriptural canon, but with the authority of oral law, which the Pharisees championed. (Josephus, Antiquities 18.16; cf. Antiquities 13.297. Carr admits this point (Canonization, 36 n. 39), which then provides another example of interpreting ‘the law’ too narrowly. Cf. the sound judgments of Beckwith, Formation, 74; and Bruce, Canon, 40-41.)
Thus, to argue that Josephus overlooked the disagreement between the two groups over the scriptural canon is also to argue that he created a controversy over the oral law where none existed, and that he retreated from his effort to present a unified Judaism in one instance, but not in the other. Surely it is more likely that Josephus simply meant what he said.
I haven’t really looked into the matter, but I imagine that all faith systems/denominations rely on traditions to some extent, even the “sola” types, regardless of claims to the contrary.
Which is exactly the case. 😉
 
patrick457,

Hmmm. I’m not sure I follow the line of argument in your references.

What have I come across so far?

“What I would now explain is this, that the Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the laws of Moses; and for that reason it is that the Sadducees reject them, and say that we are to esteem those observances to be obligatory which are in the written word, but are not to observe what are derived from the tradition of our forefathers.”
Josephus, Antiquities 13.297

“The doctrine of the Sadducees is this: That souls die with the bodies. Nor do they regard the observation of anything besides what the Law enjoins them, for they think it an instance of virtue to dispute with those teachers of philosophy whom they frequent. But this doctrine is received by but a few, though still by those of the greatest dignity.”
Josephus, Antiquities, 18 i 4

“early Mishnaic regulations indicate that priestly circles including the Sadducees ‘revered the Torah alone.’”
Stephen B. Chapman, “The Law and the Prophets: A Study in Old Testament Canon Formation” (quoting Carr?)

The Sadducees, in their attempt to entrap Jesus, use Moses Lk 20:28]

Jesus responds Mt 22:31-32] by quoting Exodus 3:6 to silence the Sadducees [c.f., Mk 12:25-26, Lk 20:37].

While these are only circumstantial, they all consistently point in one direction (i.e., for a Torah primacy, at least).

Chapman/Carr seems to be arguing about a either/or view of the canon. Could the Sadducees have held a middle ground? Was it a practical view, a politically-nuanced view, a hierarchical view, an absolute view? Was it de facto or de jeure? Did the efforts of the Sadducees to repudiate the oral traditions of the Pharisees (which position seems to be in at least partial alignment with Jesus) inadvertently back them into a “Torah-only” position that they never advocated publicly?

Certainly I have seen some here argue that Luther did not reject any books in the Catholic canon, because they were all printed in his German translation. 🙂

So I guess I’m still comfortable holding that the Sadducees were “Torah-only-ists” to some degree (for the sake of my original point).
 
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