John 6:37-39

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In John 6:37-39 the people discussed come to Christ and **keep ****coming **to Christ. These are the elect.

Catholics affirm this verse. Catholics affirm all verses.

Catholics affirm all the elect will go to Heaven.

Imputationalist is conflating being “Born Again” in a Protestant sense with
“The Elect”.

So Imputationalist needs to now show us a verse that says, “If you are ‘born again’ you are automatically one of the elect.” This is something he cannot do.

Imputationalist will say these people WILL keep coming to Christ, but I already showed in other verses in an earlier post of Jesus warning of people who DON’T KEEP coming to Christ what their fate will be. We saw these people were “IN-CHRIST”. We saw specifically that they had God as their “Father” (Matthew 6:14-15) not the devil as their father (John 8:44), yet Jesus warns people who have God as their “Father” that they can be cut off from the vine (Jesus) and that they can not have their sins forgiven.

There is free will AND predestination and how the two work is a mystery.

We don’t pick and choose which verses we will believe. We believe ALL the verses!
 
In John 6:37-39 the people discussed come to Christ and **keep ****coming **to Christ. These are the elect.

Catholics affirm this verse. Catholics affirm all verses.

Catholics affirm all the elect will go to Heaven.

Imputationalist is conflating being “Born Again” in a Protestant sense with
“The Elect”.

So Imputationalist needs to now show us a verse that says, “If you are ‘born again’ you are automatically one of the elect.” This is something he cannot do.

Imputationalist will say these people WILL keep coming to Christ, but I already showed in other verses in an earlier post of Jesus warning of people who DON’T KEEP coming to Christ what their fate will be. We saw these people were “IN-CHRIST”. We saw specifically that they had God as their “Father” (Matthew 6:14-15) not the devil as their father (John 8:44), yet Jesus warns people who have God as their “Father” that they can be cut off from the vine (Jesus) and that they can not have their sins forgiven.

There is free will AND predestination and how the two work is a mystery.

We don’t pick and choose which verses we will believe. We believe ALL the verses!
If only it was that simple! As it passes, this conversation will evolve into the intersection between charis (grace), phusis (nature), proairesis (choice), and gnome (inclination). Right now, Imputationalist is still clearing things in grace vs choice. Cachonga and I have been able to move onto grace vs nature. Then, we will move on to nature vs choice, nature vs inclination (which is the end-all between monergism and synergism) and inclination versus choice (at which we will see the effects of monergism on beatific vision).
 
Anthony V:
Why were Adam and Eve in a class by themselves? Weren’t they just un-fallen humans? Or are you saying they were something more?
They experienced salvation in reverse. They were created sinless, but sinned. They went from being spiritually alive to spiritually dead. They went from being free in God to being slaves to sin.
So now you believe we all have free will by our nature?
Of course we have free will. How else can God justly punishes sinners for their sins? That does not mean we “cooperate” with God in salvation. Because of our fallen state, being dead in our trespasses and slaves to sin, we do NOT want to truly seek after God. It is only those whom God chose from the beginning that He will change and grant grace and saving faith (and bring them to Heaven through Jesus Christ).
How were Adam and Eve created? In a natural friendship with God? Are you denying that there was grace before the fall?
As mentioned above, they experienced salvation in reverse. They were created perfect and sinless, but they sinned (and so on. See above).
 
They experienced salvation in reverse. They were created sinless, but sinned. They went from being spiritually alive to spiritually dead. They went from being free in God to being slaves to sin.
Thank you!
Of course we have free will. How else can God justly punishes sinners for their sins? That does not mean we “cooperate” with God in salvation. Because of our fallen state, being dead in our trespasses and slaves to sin, we do NOT want to truly seek after God. It is only those whom God chose from the beginning that He will change and grant grace and saving faith (and bring them to Heaven through Jesus Christ).
Thank you!
As mentioned above, they experienced salvation in reverse. They were created perfect and sinless, but they sinned (and so on. See above).
And finally, thank you! These were the answers I was waiting for 😉

So you freely admit that pre-fall Adam naturally loved God and had a communal relationship with him (even if not on covenatal terms)?
 
Anthony V:
So you freely admit that pre-fall Adam naturally loved God and had a communal relationship with him (even if not on covenatal terms)?
I would say that is clear from what we see in the Scriptures.
 
I would say that is clear from what we see in the Scriptures.
How does Romans 3:23 fit into your view?
“For all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”
Do you hold, then, that pre-fall Adam possessed the glory of God by his very nature? That he naturally deserved the glory of God for being sinless? To be succinct, was pre-fall Adam as glorious as Christ? Why or why not?
 
Anthony V:
How does Romans 3:23 fit into your view?
“For all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”
Do you hold, then, that pre-fall Adam possessed the glory of God by his very nature? That he naturally deserved the glory of God for being sinless? To be succinct, was pre-fall Adam as glorious as Christ? Why or why not?
It’s very clear that Adam sinned, therefore Rom 3:23 applies to him. I do not believe that Adam really applies to the topic of this thread. Not only was he and Eve created sinless and in fellowship with God, they also did not have to deal with a cursed, fallen world as has been the case since the fall. Likewise, to compare him with Jesus doesn’t work for much the same reason it’s not fair to compare anyone with Jesus (He is, after all, God incarnate). Even so, Jesus had to deal with the world under the curse, which Adam and Eve did not have to do until after the fall.
 
It’s very clear that Adam sinned, therefore Rom 3:23 applies to him. I do not believe that Adam really applies to the topic of this thread. Not only was he and Eve created sinless and in fellowship with God, they also did not have to deal with a cursed, fallen world as has been the case since the fall. Likewise, to compare him with Jesus doesn’t work for much the same reason it’s not fair to compare anyone with Jesus (He is, after all, God incarnate). Even so, Jesus had to deal with the world under the curse, which Adam and Eve did not have to do until after the fall.
But you’re insisting that sinlessness = fellowship with God. There is an infinite gap of virtue between humans and God, no matter whether humans have sinned against God or not. One cannot be intimate with God when there is an infinite gap of virtue between them. Think of it this way: there is a gap of proportionate virtue (namely, Charity which is Love of God) between a worm and Michael the archangel. The gap of virtue between the worm and Michael is still infinitely smaller than that between Michael and God, because a supernatural virtue (such as Love of God) is not natural to any created being–not even the angels, who were preternatural. And yet we see that Adam and Eve enjoyed a certain fellowship with God. Not as Adam and Eve were servants, but as they were friends. Consider Jn 15:15. God cannot stoop down in the virtue of Charity to that of a human, as he is God (who is Charity himself). The theological necessity is that the intimacy between Adam and Eve was a grace; a thing not natural to any created being 1 John 4:7.

Where am I going with this? I know it seems like I’ve been throwing punches at nothingness, but there is a reason. Man naturally has free will, but man cannot naturally love God in Charity. We clearly see however that pre-fall Adam and Eve were in a friendship with God, with Love. This friendship, by necessity, is of grace; man’s nature cannot reach infinitely above him. And we also know that Loving God requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But clearly, Adam and Eve fell. Grace is not irresistible as some of the reformers taught. And even so, man has free will. If this premise is true, then so is synergism.
This is a first strike for monergism.

Giving monergism the benefit of the doubt, let’s just continue further. What are the implications of pre-fall grace? Well, for one, Adam and Eve had supernatural Faith in God. How do we know? We should look at Heb 11:6:
“But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that comes to God must believe that he is: and is a rewarder to them that seek him.”
They did not see God face-to-face as in beatific vision, or else they would not have sinned.
And certainly they had supernatural Hope to see God. For if we consider Heb 11:6, then we must consider Heb 11:1 which says, “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. Because of it the ancients were well attested. By faith we understand the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.”
But now Adam and Eve did not have Faith by empty Hope. They did not have Faith and thus Hope through their sins. They had Faith and Hope through grace. Even St. Paul proclaims this: “Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.” But 2 Peter 1:3-4 continues this, even: His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature…
But if monergism is true, then Adam and Eve are predetermined to sin against God by their very own Hope and Faith with which God supplied them.
This is a second strike for monergism.

I could continue. But for now, let’s deal with what we have.
 
Anthony V,
Sorry for the misunderstanding you seem to be having. I don’t believe I ever said sinlessness = fellowship. I said Adam and Eve were “created sinless and in fellowship with God.” They do not really apply to this thread, as I have tried to explain. They do not prove or disprove either monergism or synergism, because they are in a different class than the rest of us. I have said we have free will, and we definitely sin against God of our own free will (even if what we do has been decreed by God, such as the betrayal of Jesus by Judas). However, just because we have free will, that does not mean we get “saved” or remained “saved” by cooperating with God in any way.

Those who are not drawn by the Father will not (and cannot) come to the Son (John 6:44). All that the Father draws will come to the Son (John 6:37). Jesus will lose NONE of those given to Him by the Father (John 6:39). Salvation, regeneration, justification and sanctification is from God alone and requires NO cooperation from us (see 1 Cor 1:26-31). To look to Adam and Eve for examples of monergism or synergism is like comparing apples and oranges, and it is unfair to make them equivalent (or so it appears to me) to people today.
 
Anthony V,
Sorry for the misunderstanding you seem to be having. I don’t believe I ever said sinlessness = fellowship. I said Adam and Eve were “created sinless and in fellowship with God.” They do not really apply to this thread, as I have tried to explain. They do not prove or disprove either monergism or synergism, because they are in a different class than the rest of us. I have said we have free will, and we definitely sin against God of our own free will (even if what we do has been decreed by God, such as the betrayal of Jesus by Judas). However, just because we have free will, that does not mean we get “saved” or remained “saved” by cooperating with God in any way.

Those who are not drawn by the Father will not (and cannot) come to the Son (John 6:44). All that the Father draws will come to the Son (John 6:37). Jesus will lose NONE of those given to Him by the Father (John 6:39). Salvation, regeneration, justification and sanctification is from God alone and requires NO cooperation from us (see 1 Cor 1:26-31). To look to Adam and Eve for examples of monergism or synergism is like comparing apples and oranges, and it is unfair to make them equivalent (or so it appears to me) to people today.
Maybe I am not clear. I will compose a scriptural counter-argument tomorrow in the same way you present your own.

On a different note, know that my persistence is out of love of Gods love of you. I am convinced that he does love you more than any person could imagine.
 
On further contemplation, I think it would be beneficial to approach this from a scholastic perspective. Let’s hit F5 and refresh.

The human will pre-supposes the intellect. That is, you cannot will what you cannot know. Whereas the movement of the will is movement by the subjective towards an objective, there can be no movement towards the objective in a truly objective sense when the objective is unknown. By this notion, the will isn’t free in every respect.

We must also consider that there are some things that we naturally desire, and not by free choice (“choice”, in that the objective is presupposed by the nature). This makes one of St. Augustine’s quotes in the first chapter of “Confessions” entirely relevant to the human condition: “My heart is restless, O God, until it rests in you.” We could also consider this a nobility of the dynamics produced (ironically) by the static relationship between the intellect and the will. It is for this reason that every man with sufficient intellectual capabilities moves towards a universal Good (capital G). In general, mankind desires fulfillment; fulfillment is absolute, not partial. To be “partially fulfilled” is not to be fulfilled, because you have still not reached the end or objective of fulfillment. If you are fulfilled now in a certain particular good, will you not naturally be unsatisfied later? So particular fulfillments are not the end or objective of human nature.True human fulfillment lies in the universal “Good”, and for this, man naturally seeks after this “Good”. We could say, it is objectively natural for man to move towards the universal “Good”.

Now, it goes without saying that man does not effectively know what this “Good” is. The words of John 8:31-32 ring with abundant clarity:
"So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “ If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
This idea continues in John 14:6:
“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’”
We can attest that the knowledge of the Gospel is a grace, because it is a Revelation of God’s plan to all of mankind. It is the Revelation of the supernatural objective of a natural being. While St. Paul put’s it in a sanctifying sense in 1 Cor 6:19, it is certainly true in a Christian anthropological sense that even above the human individual, the entire human nature belongs to God. In other words, we are all “temples for the Holy Spirit” but not all are “temples of the Holy Spirit”.

We should also see that simply because one desires after something (such as the universal “Good”, being a temple for the Holy Spirit) does not mean he naturally deserves it or even that he can attain it by his own faculties. In this respect also, the will is not entirely “free”. This is part of the Catholic understanding of predestination.
We can also use potter and clay analogy here as shown in Is 64:8. We are all clay formed by God, not into bowls or houses for natural things, but into temples for the Holy Spirit. We will see how this, even by virtue of being a temple, does not make us deserving of God. Mary, who was predestined to carry Jesus, who is fully God, in her womb did not make her worthy of doing so (Luke 1:37-38).

The ancient philosophers, who did not know the truth and thus could not come to know Christ, for this reason believed that knowledge was the highest “Good”. While this is true in a natural sense, Christian anthropology stretches the border of man’s objective end to a supernatural one. By this, grace (as a supernatural elevation of man to his objective end by the supernatural being itself–God) is a theological necessity. To opposing position is Pelagianism (which we both vehemently oppose). And we know that man is directed to a supernatural end, as opposed to merely a natural one.

The greater question of “what is a natural end for a rational animal with a spirit” can only be speculated. What we do know, however, is that merely having a spirit (desiring the universal “Good”, being a temple for the Holy Spirit) does not make one “supernatural” in the sense of naturally deserving Heaven. Thus, being “spiritually alive” or “spiritually dead” presupposes that man is already graced with this call to Heaven. To be “spiritually alive” is to move towards Heaven in a sanctifying and justifying sense. To be “spiritually dead” is to move away from the sanctification and justification, and to destroy ourselves who were formed into this temple. Consider 1 Cor 3:17:
If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
In this, Faith, Hope, and Love are supernatural virtues. When one possesses at least Hope by the Gospel (or in Adam and Eve’s case, a special knowledge), then he can at least have Faith in attaining the universal “Good”, which is God. This is not to presuppose Charity, which is Love. Adam and Eve were temples for and of the Holy Spirit. They had Faith, Hope, and Love in the Spirit. But when they sinned, they destroyed these spiritual temples that were their spirits. They became “spiritually dead”, as it were. In sin, not only did they destroy the temple of the Spirit, they tried to make themselves temples for themselves e.g. gods (Gen 2:4-5). But are they, Adam and Eve, still temples for the Spirit after the Fall? Of course! Consider Jn 2:13-22:
The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business.” His disciples remembered that it was written, “ Zeal for Your house will consume me.” The Jews then said to Him, “ What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?” Jesus answered them, “ Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
Now, in this sense, through Jesus Christ (rather than Adam, who failed) all are called to eternal life by having a spirit (turning from temples for the Spirit into temples of the Spirit). Whether that end is met is firstly reliant on God’s grace; God is the first mover in all things. Man, who by nature has free will, can still fill his temple with ungodly things.

Consider this: we are not reeds swayed by the wind, such that we are neutral swayed to and fro by opposing forces (e.g. concupiscence and grace). We are created with a dignity far above puppets. Salvation is not dependent on the prospect of God overriding our will; or else it would be pointless for him to have made us with one. Salvation is dependent on the harmony between the two. Whether the efficacy of Salvation is dependent on the intrinsic efficacy of the will, or dependent on the intrinsic efficacy of the grace is a controversy even inside the Church. But because of Christology, Monotheletism, in all it’s forms, is entirely rejected:
The Catholic doctrine is simple, at all events in its main lines. The faculty of willing is an integral part of human nature: therefore, our Lord had a human will, since He took a perfect human nature. His Divine will on the other hand is numerically one with that of the Father and the Holy Ghost. It is therefore necessary to acknowledge two wills in Christ.
But if the word will is taken to mean not the faculty but the decision taken by the will (the will willed, not the will willing), then it is true that the two wills always acted in harmony: there were two wills willing and two acts, but one object, one will willed; in the phrase of St. Maximus, there were duo thelemata though mia gnome. The word will is also used to mean not a decision of the will, but a mere velleity or wish, voluntas ut natura (thelesis) as opposed to voluntas ut ratio (boulesis). These are but two movements of the same faculty; both exist in Christ without any imperfection, and the natural movement of His human will is perfectly subject to its rational or free movement. Lastly, the sensitive appetite is also sometimes entitled will. It is an integral part of human nature, and therefore exists in the perfect human nature of Jesus Christ, but without any of the imperfection induced by original or actual sin: He can have no passions (in that sense of the word which implies a revolt against the reason), no concupiscence, no “will of the flesh”. Therefore this “lower will” is to be denied in Christ, in so far as it is called a will, because it resists the rational will (it was in this sense that Honorius was said by John IV to have denied that Christ had a lower will); but it is to be asserted in Him so far as it is called will, because it obeys the rational will, and so is voluntas per participationem: in fact in this latter sense the sensual appetite is less improperly called will in Christ than in us, for quo perfectior est volens, eo magis sensualitas in eo de voluntate habet. But the strict Sense of the word will (votuntas, thelema) is always the rational will, the free will.
 
Additionally, I should like to define, fundamentally, three different freedoms:

Natural Freedom (free will, freedom between choices)
Circumstantial Freedom (freedom from coercion)
Acquired Freedom (freedom for the Good, virtuous freedom).

Perhaps this will help clear up some discrepancy. I will write more later.

Peace to you.
 
Anthony V,
Sorry for the delay, but we’ve had a bit of bad weather, and I’ve been trying to figure out exactly what you’re saying now. It feels like I’m getting some kind of lesson in philosophy (which Paul warned believers about in Col 2:8).

Consider this – God, as the Master Potter, made us (the pots) according to His desire. I would say that it is undeniable that not everyone is suited to perform every job (in other words, we can’t all be brain surgeons, sports legends, American Idols, etc…). God made us in such a way that we have the desires, skills and abilities to do the work He has for us. Do you think He “violated” anyone’s “free will” in doing this? I wanted to play in the NFL when I was growing up, but I had been created with a heart condition that prevented that (as well as kept me out of the military). Was God “unfair” to me in any way for creating me like that? I don’t think so! As I have grown in God’s love and grace, I have become more aware of the blessing my life has been (especially in the early years when I couldn’t do many of the physical activities of “normal” kids). I don’t fully understand everything (and maybe I never will), but I do trust God and completely believe Romans 8:28 (“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” NASB).

I would say that those who are not of the elect believe that the “greater good” is to “watch out for #1” (and we all know who “#1” is). Even those who, for whatever reason, take on a “religious” lifestyle, do so for (ultimately) selfish reasons (to be well spoken of, to (hopefully) avoid hell, etc…). Because they are spiritually dead in their sins, they are unable to discern (or know) spiritual things. It’s only after God, in His mercy, regenerates someone, removing the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh (with His Laws written upon it), and making them a “new creature in Christ” that anyone can see clearly the need for a savior, and have the means to do so (being sealed with the Holy Spirit).

I’m not sure if further dialog is possible because I’m not altogether sure what you’re saying (or trying to say). Perhaps if you cut down your response and limited it to the topic of the thread, we might be able to continue.
 
Anthony V,
Sorry for the delay, but we’ve had a bit of bad weather, and I’ve been trying to figure out exactly what you’re saying now. It feels like I’m getting some kind of lesson in philosophy (which Paul warned believers about in Col 2:8).

Consider this – God, as the Master Potter, made us (the pots) according to His desire. I would say that it is undeniable that not everyone is suited to perform every job (in other words, we can’t all be brain surgeons, sports legends, American Idols, etc…). God made us in such a way that we have the desires, skills and abilities to do the work He has for us. Do you think He “violated” anyone’s “free will” in doing this? I wanted to play in the NFL when I was growing up, but I had been created with a heart condition that prevented that (as well as kept me out of the military). Was God “unfair” to me in any way for creating me like that? I don’t think so! As I have grown in God’s love and grace, I have become more aware of the blessing my life has been (especially in the early years when I couldn’t do many of the physical activities of “normal” kids). I don’t fully understand everything (and maybe I never will), but I do trust God and completely believe Romans 8:28 (“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” NASB).

I would say that those who are not of the elect believe that the “greater good” is to “watch out for #1” (and we all know who “#1” is). Even those who, for whatever reason, take on a “religious” lifestyle, do so for (ultimately) selfish reasons (to be well spoken of, to (hopefully) avoid hell, etc…). Because they are spiritually dead in their sins, they are unable to discern (or know) spiritual things. It’s only after God, in His mercy, regenerates someone, removing the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh (with His Laws written upon it), and making them a “new creature in Christ” that anyone can see clearly the need for a savior, and have the means to do so (being sealed with the Holy Spirit).

I’m not sure if further dialog is possible because I’m not altogether sure what you’re saying (or trying to say). Perhaps if you cut down your response and limited it to the topic of the thread, we might be able to continue.
(emphasis mine)

Hi again Cachonga,

I haven’t read everything in the thread since I last posted but this caught my eye (in bold.)

When discussing the free will of man, what I believe is meant is the ability* of man (*only by the grace of God) to be able to choose to cooperate with God’s grace and be saved. It has nothing to do with what gifts abilities one is given.

The article in the Catholic Encyclopedia, “Free Will” goes into detail and includes the Catholic understanding.

Here is one citation:
The doctrine that God has created man, has commanded him to obey the moral law, and has promised to reward or punish him for observance or violation of this law, made the reality of moral liberty an issue of transcendent importance. Unless man is really free, he cannot be justly held responsible for his actions, any more than for the date of his birth or the colour of his eyes.
Source: Maher, Michael. “Free Will.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 6. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1909. 13 Jul. 2012 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm. (Emphasis mine)

In my emphasized sentence, what is meant by “free will” as it relates to this conversation has to deal with the former (underlined), while your comment above seems to deal with the latter (bold.)

The article
explains that there are two schools of thought in Catholic Theology: the “Thomist and Molinist theories” *

As Dr. Robert Sungenis pointed out in his debate on Predestination with Dr. James White, Catholic Theology has Predestination working in conjunction with the free will of man because the Bible teaches both.

However:
A leading feature in the teaching of the Reformers of the sixteenth century, especially in the case of Luther and Calvin, was the denial of free will. Picking out from the Scriptures, and particularly from St. Paul, the texts which emphasized the importance and efficacy of grace, the all-ruling providence of God, His decrees of election or predestination, and the feebleness of man, they drew the conclusion that the human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life. As a consequence, man is predestined before his birth to eternal punishment or reward in such fashion that he never can have had any real free-power over his own fate…The predestination of all future human acts by God is so interpreted as to shut out any possibility of freedom. An inflexible internal necessity turns man’s will whithersoever God preordains. With Calvin, God’s preordination is, if possible, even more fatal to free will. Man can perform no sort of good act unless necessitated to it by God’s grace which it is impossible for him to resist. It is absurd to speak of the human will ‘co-operating’ with God’s grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things. It is objected that in this case God sometimes imposes impossible commands. Both Calvin and Luther reply that the commands of God show us not what we can do but what we ought to do.
Source: Maher, Michael. “Free Will.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 6. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1909. 13 Jul. 2012 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm.

The Catholic response (briefly and continuing from the quote above) :
In condemnation of these views, the Council of Trent declared that the free will of man, moved and excited by God, can by its consent co-operate with God, Who excites and invites its action; and that it can thereby dispose and prepare itself to obtain the grace of justification. The will can resist grace if it chooses. It is not like a lifeless thing, which remains purely passive. Weakened and diminished by Adam’s fall, free will is yet not destroyed in the race (Sess. VI, cap. i and v).
Source: Ibid.*
 
Anthony V,
Sorry for the delay, but we’ve had a bit of bad weather.
I hope you and yours are alright!
And I’ve been trying to figure out exactly what you’re saying now. It feels like I’m getting some kind of lesson in philosophy (which Paul warned believers about in Col 2:8).
The Church has, since its early times, made use of philosophy. Not that philosophy has jurisdiction over theology at all; rather that theology has made sense of philosophy in light of faith.
Consider this – God, as the Master Potter, made us (the pots) according to His desire. I would say that it is undeniable that not everyone is suited to perform every job (in other words, we can’t all be brain surgeons, sports legends, American Idols, etc…). God made us in such a way that we have the desires, skills and abilities to do the work He has for us. Do you think He “violated” anyone’s “free will” in doing this?
No. I said the following:
We must also consider that there are some things that we naturally desire, and not by free choice (“choice”, in that the objective is presupposed by the nature). This makes one of St. Augustine’s quotes in the first chapter of “Confessions” entirely relevant to the human condition: “My heart is restless, O God, until it rests in you.”
(Anthony V)
I would say that those who are not of the elect believe that the “greater good” is to “watch out for #1” (and we all know who “#1” is). Even those who, for whatever reason, take on a “religious” lifestyle, do so for (ultimately) selfish reasons (to be well spoken of, to (hopefully) avoid hell, etc…). Because they are spiritually dead in their sins, they are unable to discern (or know) spiritual things. It’s only after God, in His mercy, regenerates someone, removing the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh (with His Laws written upon it), and making them a “new creature in Christ” that anyone can see clearly the need for a savior, and have the means to do so (being sealed with the Holy Spirit).
The question here is “to whom is sufficient grace given?” Am I correct?
I’m not sure if further dialogue is possible because I’m not altogether sure what you’re saying (or trying to say). Perhaps if you cut down your response and limited it to the topic of the thread, we might be able to continue.
I’m attempting to amass the “big picture” to show where this view of predestination does not match up. It’s not working so well, obviously. I’ll tone it down.
 
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