John 6 and Eucharist?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mikeledes
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh! Oh! Oh! I almost forgot. What about Jesus being the Paschal Lamb? What did the Jews do each and every Passover? They eat of the Lamb, the Sacrifice.

In Egypt, what happened if any Hebrews did not eat of the Sacrificial Lamb? They woke up the next day with a dead son - their first born.

Jesus is our Paschal Sacrifice. If we don’t eat of this Sacrifice, it is incomplete, and we do not have everlasting life.

Notworthy
 
40.png
Quatsch:
A question I’ve encountered has to do with John 6:63. Here is the context of the quote copied below:

How is this to be understood? A protestant asked, “If ‘it is the spirit that gives life’ and ‘the flesh is of no avail,’ why then would Jesus mean for us to eat his flesh, if the flesh is of no avail?”

Can anyone help me to understand what Jesus means in this quote? I’ve tried to find resources touching on it, but haven’t done so successfully.

Blessings,

Kyle
Click to expand...
Hrm, I’ve seen different schools of thought on this one. One is towards understanding, that is, your flesh will not avail you to understand this mystery. First the apostles ask “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” And Jesus challenges their incredulity asking what they would do if they say Him ascending to Heaven again. And then he says how the spirit profits, and the flesh does not avail. The NAB mark for the verse is:
22 [63] Spirit . . . flesh: probably not a reference to the eucharistic body of Jesus but to the supernatural and the natural, as in John 3:6. Spirit and life: all Jesus said about the bread of life is the revelation of the Spirit.
Click to expand...
Which seems to fit in fairly well. “The flesh,” seems to be an abstract reference to weak human ‘flesh,’ not to Christ’s flesh.
 
40.png
Anonymous_1:
Im sorry Jim, I thought you were saying it dosen’t matter what we believe.

It seems i have misunderstood you…

Im sorry…
Click to expand...
No problem. As I reread some of my own posts I find myself getting a little lost myself.

Going back to the original post of this thread - “how do I respond to this” (this being a protestant interpretation of The verses from John in question) - I admit to still being unsure of how to repond. I guess I think that that is ok.

I accept the Church’s teaching on the Eucharist without being fully convinced of any of the various attempts (including my own) to put each and every verse of John’s Gospel in the right perspective.

This has been an interesting and worthwhile discussion but my stomach is full and the rest of me is tired so happy Thanksgiving and peace to all.

-Jim
 
40.png
mikeledes:
Many Protestants argue that the earing and drinking referred to in John 6:53 is actually referring to belief in Jesus, since it says that those who eat and drink the flesh and blood of Jesus have eternal life and John 6:47 states that “whoever believes has eternal life.” One Protestant Bible commentary states that:

“The separation of the blood from the flesh emphasizes the reality of Jesus’ death. To “eat” and “drink” is to believe (v.47), to appropriate , assimilate, and abide in Christ (v.56).”

How do I respond to this?

God Bless,
Michael
Click to expand...
Jesus used literal language in this passage. Scripturecatholic.com goes into this in the section on the Eucharist. No one left when He called Himself a “vine” or a “door” but John makes a point of people leaving Him in John 6. The Protestant view makes an interesting metaphor but it is also an attempt to get around the key point: the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I think that Our Lord is too insistant to understand this any other way. The Church Fathers agree too.

Anyhow, that’s my two cents. I hope that everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving yesterday.
 
Its interesting to note that most Protestants read the bible so literally, claiming Catholics try and read too much spiritual exegesis into the bible.

But when Jesus says 6 times to “eat My Flesh” (the last few times, it literally translates to “gnaw” and “grind”), they lean on one line to counteract these words. It’s all of a sudden all about the Spirit instead of His Flesh.

When He says “This is My Body”, he meant “This represents My Body”, even though there were many words that could more clearly convey “This Represents…”

Or when Jesus says “You are Rock, and upon this Rock”, “This Rock” is all of a sudden Peter’s Confession, not what Jesus literally said.

Hmmmmm…

Notworthy
 
40.png
Quatsch:
A question I’ve encountered has to do with John 6:63. Here is the context of the quote copied below:

How is this to be understood? A protestant asked, “If ‘it is the spirit that gives life’ and ‘the flesh is of no avail,’ why then would Jesus mean for us to eat his flesh, if the flesh is of no avail?”

Can anyone help me to understand what Jesus means in this quote? I’ve tried to find resources touching on it, but haven’t done so successfully.

Blessings,

Kyle
Click to expand...
Kyle,
The following helped me. It’s from Radio Replies Vol. IFrs. Rumble and Carty, #857

“When Christ promised that he would give His very flesh to eat the Jews protested because they imagined a natural and cannibalistic eating of Christ’s body. Christ refuted this notion of the manner in which His flesh was to be received by saying that He would ascend into Heaven, not leaving His body in its human form upon earth. But He did not say that they were not to eat His actual body. He would thus contradict Himslef, for a little earlier He had said, ‘My flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink indeed.’ 6:56. He meant, therefore, ‘You will not be asked to eat my flesh in the horrible and natural way you think, for my body as you see it with your eyes will be gone from this earth. Yet I shall leave My flesh and blood in another and supernatural way which your natural and carnal minds cannot understand. The carnal or fleshly judgment profits nothing. I ask you therefore to have faith in Me and to trust Me. It is the spirit of faith which will enable you to believe, not your natural judgment.’”
 
Has anybody ever commented on the two missing words: “Just kidding!”

After Jesus made his speech about them eating His Body and drinking His Blood, they all turned and walked away.

All those people he had been so assiduously courting. Performing miracles for. Feeding them. Preaching His heart out to.

However, at no point, after they walked away, did Jesus say, “No, wait, come back. JUST KIDDING!!!”

Am I being flip?

Well, Jesus turned to the chosen Apostles, and asked “Are you going to leave, also?”

Jesus was not kidding.

So, for all the eagle-eyed nitpickers out there, … Are you going to leave, also?
 
Quatsch:

Another important point is that Jesus tells us “MY flesh is real food and MY blood is real drink”

He then says “THE flesh counts for nothing”

See the contrast? In the latter verse he was not referring to his flesh but to a worldly way of interperting his words.

Hope this helps.
 
Sugar Ray:
Quatsch:

Another important point is that Jesus tells us “MY flesh is real food and MY blood is real drink”

He then says “THE flesh counts for nothing”

See the contrast? In the latter verse he was not referring to his flesh but to a worldly way of interperting his words.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
I think Sugar Ray’s onto something most non-Catholic Christians can relate to…If I may elaborate some more:

Anyone who interprets John 6:63 “…the flesh is of no avail”, to mean that Jesus’ flesh is of no avail, should not honestly call himself a Christian, since “Christian” denotes acceptance of certain core beliefs about Jesus, God, mankind, and creation.

It is by Jesus’ flesh that all of creation is redeemed back to God. To say otherwise is to call Jesus’ sacrificial act of Love on the Cross a meaningless event.

So, if Jesus is not talking about His own flesh when he says “the flesh”, what is He talking about?

-“The flesh” is a phrase used elsewhere in the NT.

Paul uses “the flesh” in Romans 8, contrasting concerns of “the flesh” being death, and concerns of “the spirit” being life and peace.

Paul uses it again in 1 Cor. 3, where he sets “spiritual people” against “fleshly people” and where “of the flesh”=“behaving in an ordinary human way”.

It makes good sense to use “the flesh” that way in John 6:63. Jesus is telling us that what He is revealing to us is not going to be grasped and understood by our human reasoning (the flesh)alone. It’s going to take an act of the Spirit (Faith, a Spiritual gift from God).

But, hey, besides all this, Jesus actually tells us what he means by “the Bread of Life” in John 6:51. Everyone bounces around it all the time, but to me it’s pretty plain:

John 6:51 (as some Christians favoring a symbolic Eucharist might wish it were written):
“I am the Living Bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my Word, my Teachings, my Love, and my Spirit”.

John 6:51 (as the Holy Spirit inspired it to be written):
“I am the Living Bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world”.

In mathematical form, Scripture, all within John 6, gives us:
JESUS=BREAD OF LIFE=WHAT WE MUST EAT=HIS FLESH

It seems like we can all keep going 'round and 'round about John 6, there is sooo much more, starting from verse 1, which we can discuss once we get people to see what Jesus is really talking about. But for now, can anyone use Scripture to argue against the equation above? I don’t think so, but I won’t get my feelings hurt if someone can find answer, I promise.

GOD BLESS US ALL!
 
Kurt G.:
I think Sugar Ray’s onto something most non-Catholic Christians can relate to…If I may elaborate some more:

Anyone who interprets John 6:63 “…the flesh is of no avail”, to mean that Jesus’ flesh is of no avail, should not honestly call himself a Christian, since “Christian” denotes acceptance of certain core beliefs about Jesus, God, mankind, and creation.

It is by Jesus’ flesh that all of creation is redeemed back to God. To say otherwise is to call Jesus’ sacrificial act of Love on the Cross a meaningless event.

So, if Jesus is not talking about His own flesh when he says “the flesh”, what is He talking about?

-“The flesh” is a phrase used elsewhere in the NT.

Paul uses “the flesh” in Romans 8, contrasting concerns of “the flesh” being death, and concerns of “the spirit” being life and peace.

Paul uses it again in 1 Cor. 3, where he sets “spiritual people” against “fleshly people” and where “of the flesh”=“behaving in an ordinary human way”.

It makes good sense to use “the flesh” that way in John 6:63. Jesus is telling us that what He is revealing to us is not going to be grasped and understood by our human reasoning (the flesh)alone. It’s going to take an act of the Spirit (Faith, a Spiritual gift from God).

But, hey, besides all this, Jesus actually tells us what he means by “the Bread of Life” in John 6:51. Everyone bounces around it all the time, but to me it’s pretty plain:

John 6:51 (as some Christians favoring a symbolic Eucharist might wish it were written):
“I am the Living Bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my Word, my Teachings, my Love, and my Spirit”.

John 6:51 (as the Holy Spirit inspired it to be written):
“I am the Living Bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world”.

In mathematical form, Scripture, all within John 6, gives us:
JESUS=BREAD OF LIFE=WHAT WE MUST EAT=HIS FLESH

It seems like we can all keep going 'round and 'round about John 6, there is sooo much more, starting from verse 1, which we can discuss once we get people to see what Jesus is really talking about. But for now, can anyone use Scripture to argue against the equation above? I don’t think so, but I won’t get my feelings hurt if someone can find answer, I promise.

GOD BLESS US ALL!
Click to expand...
I am the bread that comes down from heaven. To me this bread is Gods Word. If you eat the Word of God and get it inside of you ,you will have eternal life.This is the food Christ was talking about. Jesus is the Word. It is eating of this bread (Word) that will give us wisdom, understanding, revelation knowledge and knowing what Gods will in our lives is. 😉 God Bless
 
40.png
Quatsch:
A question I’ve encountered has to do with John 6:63. Here is the context of the quote copied below:

How is this to be understood? A protestant asked, “If ‘it is the spirit that gives life’ and ‘the flesh is of no avail,’ why then would Jesus mean for us to eat his flesh, if the flesh is of no avail?”

Can anyone help me to understand what Jesus means in this quote? I’ve tried to find resources touching on it, but haven’t done so successfully.

Blessings,

Kyle
Click to expand...
When discussions about John 6 comes up, those who object to Catholic teaching would try to bring this up. I reflected on it, and realized that it does not destroy Catholic teaching; it actually bolsters it. This is how I see that verse: if one realizes that at the Consecration, as the bread and wine are lifted, what happens? It becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord. Now, we never see it happen, right? Yet it does happen. Why? “It is the Spirit that gives life”. It hit me that Jesus referenced what will take place, first on the Last Supper, and later on in Masses all over the world. The spirit gives life indeed–the bread and wine, ordinary things, have become the Body and Blood. Lifted up, the Holy Spirit comes down and transforms them to Jesus’ Body and Blood. So it is true, that by itself, the bread and wine are ordinary, but with the Consecration and the Spirit, it becomes Life.
 
40.png
Milliardo:
When discussions about John 6 comes up, those who object to Catholic teaching would try to bring this up. I reflected on it, and realized that it does not destroy Catholic teaching; it actually bolsters it. This is how I see that verse: if one realizes that at the Consecration, as the bread and wine are lifted, what happens? It becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord. Now, we never see it happen, right? Yet it does happen. Why? “It is the Spirit that gives life”. It hit me that Jesus referenced what will take place, first on the Last Supper, and later on in Masses all over the world. The spirit gives life indeed–the bread and wine, ordinary things, have become the Body and Blood. Lifted up, the Holy Spirit comes down and transforms them to Jesus’ Body and Blood. So it is true, that by itself, the bread and wine are ordinary, but with the Consecration and the Spirit, it becomes Life.
Click to expand...
AMEN !!!

Notworthy
 
I agree it is the Spirit that gives us life. For God is Spirit. 👍 God Bless
 
40.png
SPOKENWORD:
I agree it is the Spirit that gives us life. For God is Spirit. 👍 God Bless
Click to expand...
That’s absolutely right, but Jesus also has a physical body. God, therefore, is also physical.
 
Kay Cee:
That’s absolutely right, but Jesus also has a physical body. God, therefore, is also physical.
Click to expand...
That physical (glorified) body was taken up to heaven where He is now seated at the right hand of the Father. God Bless
 
40.png
SPOKENWORD:
I am the bread that comes down from heaven. To me this bread is Gods Word. If you eat the Word of God and get it inside of you ,you will have eternal life.This is the food Christ was talking about. Jesus is the Word. It is eating of this bread (Word) that will give us wisdom, understanding, revelation knowledge and knowing what Gods will in our lives is. 😉 God Bless
Click to expand...
The passage in John 6 nowhere even implies this and I’m wondering if I’m the only one here that sees the mental and theological gymnastics SW just displayed to make the verses of the Word of God fit that interpretation. There’s just no stretch of logic that makes that right.
**
Claiming** that the Holy Spirit is guiding you personally when the church for 2,000 years has taught and believed something else and when the plain sense of the passage in no way supports an interpretation is probably one of the definitions of heresy, is it not? Only in the last 500 years has any part of Christianity sought to deny this Eucharistic truth. In fact, if one goes back to 1st Cor 11:23-30 and then compares it with the 1st letter of bishop St. Ignatius of Antioch to the church at Smyrna in 107 AD, (less than 10 years after the death of the last apostle, St John, who was also his close friend and who discipled him in the faith) you find that nothing had changed and this belief was still a very big deal among the believers. Here’s a direct quote:

CHAP. VII.–LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,(13) that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of(15) them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.(16) But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils
The whole letter is great reading

Pax vobiscum,
 
40.png
SPOKENWORD:
That physical (glorified) body was taken up to heaven where He is now seated at the right hand of the Father. God Bless
Click to expand...
So God is incapable of existing physically anywhere else?
 
Church Militant:
The passage in John 6 nowhere even implies this and I’m wondering if I’m the only one here that sees the mental and theological gymnastics SW just displayed to make the verses of the Word of God fit that interpretation. There’s just no stretch of logic that makes that right.
Actually, I noticed it as well, but I thought to just let it pass. 🙂
Click to expand...
 
Hello, SpokenWord. You dodged something that was presented for you, maybe unintentionally. So I’ll repeat just the portion that begs a response from you…
Kurt G.:
…But, hey, besides all this, Jesus actually tells us what he means by “the Bread of Life” in John 6:51. Everyone bounces around it all the time, but to me it’s pretty plain:

John 6:51 (as some Christians favoring a symbolic Eucharist might wish it were written):
“I am the Living Bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my Word, my Teachings, my Love, and my Spirit”.

John 6:51 (as God has written it):
“I am the Living Bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world”.

In mathematical form, Scripture gives us (all within John 6):

JESUS=BREAD OF LIFE=WHAT WE MUST EAT=HIS FLESH

It seems like we can all keep going 'round and 'round about John 6, there is sooo much more, starting from verse 1, which we can discuss once we get people to see what Jesus is really talking about. But for now, can anyone use Scripture to argue against the equation above? I don’t think so, but I won’t get my feelings hurt if someone can find answer, I promise.

GOD BLESS US ALL!
Click to expand...
Anyway, SpokenWord, God’s Holy Word in John 6:51 seems to contradict what you believe. I thought maybe it was worthy of presenting again…

God Bless Us All!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top