John 6 and Eucharist?

[Verbum_Caro]

mercygate:

Not quite. Catholicism calls the Eucharist the same Sacrifice. It is not “a” sacrifice in the sense that it is one of many.

Ah, mercygate, thank you for your precision! (Which is absolutely required when speaking of these things).

So, I amend my statment to say that “It is The sacrifice, offered in an unbloody manner”.

See The Council of Trent, session 22:

And inasmuch as in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner the same Christ who once offered himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, the holy council teaches that this is truly propitiatory…For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of priests who then offered himself on the Cross, the manner alone of offering being different.

VC

 

[mercygate]

Verbum Caro:

Ah, mercygate, thank you for your precision! (Which is absolutely required when speaking of these things).

Very gratifying to see that somebody reads this stuff. Thanks! :tiphat:

 

[Philthy]

bene7:

Bottom line, however, is not what men believed down through the centuries, but what God’s Word actually communicates. We are commanded to believe His Word.

God Bless,
Bene

Hi bene7

Ah, Im sure that is what you would like to believe (since most of them,historically, disagree with you) but isn’t that the paradox of paradoxes. We aren’t to believe men, but only the “word of God” which, of course, has been revealed to us through…men and handed down to us through what?

Direct Divine revelation from God? NO

Through the Apostles orally? YES

And the Scripture we now have, that you cling to? Is it even the original - nope - copies of copies of a THEORETICAL original. We rely on absolutely nothing more than the words of men that Scripture is what it is. Fuss and pout all you want, but Scripture was not written into stone like the 10 commandments. We can accept it only by virtue of the men who have passed it on to us.

Phil

 

[Verbum_Caro]

mercygate:

Very gratifying to see that somebody reads this stuff. Thanks! :tiphat:

Tag-Team for The Truth!

 

[Kay_Cee]

bene7:

How can Jesus be, bodily, BOTH crucified and resurrected?. First Peter 3:18 emphatically states that Jesus was put to death ONCE for all, the just for the unjust. It was an historical event in time/space but with infinite results and gracious rewards for those who believe. Never to be repeated again.

We don’t know how. However, you imply that such a thing is impossible for God, who exists beyond time and space, to achieve.

We agree that the sacrifice is never to be repeated. We don’t repeat it. The sacrifice is not the killing of the victim but of offering it to God. It is the same sacrifice at the Last Supper as it is at the Crucifixion as it is at Sunday Mass, a pure offering that exists beyond time and space. Again, God, who exists beyond time and space, can make this so. This was prophesized in the Old Testament: “For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations: and everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name and a pure offering.” (Malachi 1:11) Notice that the writer says *sacrifice *(singular), not *sacrifices *(plural). Apparently one singular sacrifice can be made simultaneously in different places.

 

[Philthy]

mercygate:

Not quite. Catholicism calls the Eucharist the same Sacrifice. It is not “a” sacrifice in the sense that it is one of many.

I fail to follw this. What other Body can it be than his own, which is his glorified body? The farewell discourse, which initiates the Passion narrative in the Gospel of John, begins, “Now is the son of man glorified.” Crucified/glorifed cannot be separated in the eternal unity of the Godhead. Christ is, after all, the sacrificial lamb “without blemish or spot. . . . destined before the foundation of the world.” I Pet 1:19-20 It isn’t “both” in the sense that two separate things must be separated in order to exist – “both” together are the Sacred Body of Christ. This comment, aside from being grotesque, does not make your point, because you are thinking like a complete and utter materialist.Catholicism holds reason in the highest regard. Faith and reason are both seen as ways to understand things as they truly are. For us, faith may go beyond reason but not against it. Many non-Catholics believe that Catholics waste too much time trying to render “unreasonable” matters “reasonable.” I believe you are really trying to say that the Church expects people to be not unreasonable but to be blind in their faith. Nothing could be further from the truth. That said, there is a place where reason must give way to faith, which is, after all, “the conviction of things not seen.” To the extent that faith addresses “things not seen” I suppose you could call it “blind.”

“Lord, increase our faith.”

Thank you!

 

[Kurt_G]

Kay Cee:

We don’t know how. However, you imply that such a thing is impossible for God, who exists beyond time and space, to achieve.

We agree that the sacrifice is never to be repeated. We don’t repeat it. The sacrifice is not the killing of the victim but of offering it to God. It is the same sacrifice at the Last Supper as it is at the Crucifixion as it is at Sunday Mass, a pure offering that exists beyond time and space. Again, God, who exists beyond time and space, can make this so. This was prophesized in the Old Testament: “For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations: and everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name and a pure offering.” (Malachi 1:11) Notice that the writer says *sacrifice *(singular), not *sacrifices *(plural). Apparently one singular sacrifice can be made simultaneously in different places.

Kay Cee, thanks so much for bringing up Malachi’s prophecy at a very proper time. I was trying to draft something similar, but yours was clearer.

mercygate:

Very gratifying to see that somebody reads this stuff. Thanks!

Don’t be so modest, mercygate! We read you whenever we see you! I can be gone for months, come back, and there’s good ol’ mercygate, still contributing!

bene unloaded lots of other “stuff” on Notworthy in post #137. Was that just letting off steam, or does bene want to crank up another thread or two?

 

[Aaron_I]

bene7:

I don’t know from where you get this idea, but it sounds like maybe its from the teachings of mystical Judaism. The Passover observed by the Jews is not mystical in that sense. It was observed annually to remember God redeeming them through the blood of the Passover lamb from the bondage of Egypt.

Are you serious? Do you realize that they literally check to see if Elijah has returned to earth? Sounds pretty “mystical” to me. I have seen countless sources defining a zikkaron event as I have described it to you. Have you seen a single ONE source discounting this method, or did you simply decide it doesn’t make sense.

bene7:

In like manner it is stated to believers that we are to eat the bread and drink the wine in REMEMBRANCE of Him.The eucharist is not the fulfillment of the Passover feast. Jesus Christ certainly is the fulfillment of the Passover lamb, but the Passover feast itself was given to the Jews as a “memorial,” and a permanent ordinance (see Ex. 12:14). They observe it today and will observe it as a nation during the future, Millennial Kingdom when Christ rules on this earth.

Yes, it was given as a memorial, but in the same sense as the Passover is a memorial: zikkaron. Seriously, you have not shown any evidence to counter this notion.

bene7:

Similar to the Passover meal Communion was given to the Church to observe as a memorial of the historical, once for all, sacrifice of our Lord, who by His death on the cross redeemed us (believers) from the bondage of our sins (see Col. 1:9-14; note that in verse 13 both “delivered” and “transferred” are in the past tense).Notice Paul does not say “eats His body and drinks His blood,” but “eats the BREAD and drinks the CUP?” He retains the elements. It was done, and should be done, in REMEMBRANCE of that historical event (vs. 24). If done irreverently they are guilty of trivializing the sacrifice of Christ. In respect to what is recorded in 1 Cor. 11 you must keep in mind that this was the beginning of the Church age and they (the believers at Corinth) were responsible for handing down the faith to future generations of believers and the integrity of the faith. And for this reason God executed immediate judgment on some of those among them who participated in an unworthy manner (such as drunkenness, vs. 21). Just as He did to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapter five for lying.

What constitutes an unworthy manner? Are you defining “trivializing the sacrifice of Christ” as being sinful and worthy of judgement. What if someone had accepted Christ? Can a single act of sin cause one to lose salvation? So you seem to propose. Of course, this is Biblical, read Hebrews 10:26-27. That should also dispel the OSAS notion. Please actually respond to my earlier comments about James 2. Faith is completed by works.

NotWorthy, since you believe you can lose your salvation by sinning, tell me then of what significance was the cross of Christ and God imputing your sins upon Him? How does the cross, the substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of Christ, play into your faith? Do you just believe it happened historically but it has no real significant bearing on your personal salvation?

Again, I just referrence a verse that explicitly states that you can lose salvation through sin. Also, it is implicit in James 2. What does the cross do? Everything. But the graces we receive are during the Eucharist, during which the past is made present.

 

[Philthy]

bene7:

Bringing this to the chapter in question. In John six the people asked Jesus what they should do that they may work the works of God. He responded, “This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE in whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

yea we’ve been through this, like, 4000 times. Christ calls belief a work and you will claim otherwise. And he contrasts belief with disobedience, yet you cannot come to grips with belief having elements of obedience in it. It begins to sound like a clanging symbol.

bene7:
NotWorthy, since you believe you can lose your salvation by sinning, tell me then of what significance was the cross of Christ and God imputing your sins upon Him?

It made available the gift of eternal life which we were previously separated from. We can accept it - or reject it - at any time during our lives.

Phil

 

[Philthy]

You know, on reflecting on the meanings of the bread of life discourse I acknowledge that I enter it with a bias. I think we all do. But that is no different than what happened on the day that Jesus said the things he said. And in that account, people had one of two reactions:

Reaction 1: Comprehension of what He said and disbelief that it was possible for him to have meant what they understood him to mean based on their “reasoning” (those who walked away).

Reaction 2: Comprehension of what He said and belief that it was true DESPITE their inability to understand how it was “reasonably” possible for him to have meant what they understood him to mean(Peter, et al)

We all know Christ didn’t mislead them. None of them understood. In the face of not understanding, and, in fact, in the face of something APPARENTLY contrary to reason, the faithful chose to follow Him. Their faith propelled them beyond where reason deserted them.

Phil

 

[Mickey]

Philthy:

You know, on reflecting on the meanings of the bread of life discourse I acknowledge that I enter it with a bias. I think we all do. But that is no different than what happened on the day that Jesus said the things he said. And in that account, people had one of two reactions:

Reaction 1: Comprehension of what He said and disbelief that it was possible for him to have meant what they understood him to mean based on their “reasoning” (those who walked away).

Reaction 2: Comprehension of what He said and belief that it was true DESPITE their inability to understand how it was “reasonably” possible for him to have meant what they understood him to mean(Peter, et al)

We all know Christ didn’t mislead them. None of them understood. In the face of not understanding, and, in fact, in the face of something APPARENTLY contrary to reason, the faithful chose to follow Him. Their faith propelled them beyond where reason deserted them.

Phil

Wonderfully worded Phil. I’m savin’ that one to my files.

 

[NotWorthy]

bene7:

Yes, I’m sorry too because you’re reading and interpreting it with your works oriented blinders on.

Yes, you’re right, my friend. And the Bible gave me those blinders! Read on:

***In Matt 25:31-46 are many examples of doing good works,******proclaimed by Jesus Christ. There is the separation of the sheep from the goats which relate to, the feeding of the hungry, clothing of the naked, visiting the sick and those imprisoned, and more. Notice that both the sheep and the goats believed, but only the sheep did good works. In verse 46, Jesus cautioned as to what will be the reward of those who ******do not do ******these things, and of those who do, “And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life.”

******“Work *out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Phil 2:12. See also 1Cor 9:24-27.

“And if you invoke as Father him who without respect of persons judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves with fear in the time of your sojourning.” 1Pet 1:17

“There are just men and wise men, and their works are in the hand of GOD.” Eccl 9:1

“…who will render to every man according to his works.” Rom 2:6

“But their end will be according to their works.” 2Cor 11:15

“For GOD shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” Eccl 12:14

*****“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 7:21

“Now we know that GOD does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of GOD, AND DOES HIS WILL , him He hears.” John 9:31

“But why do you call Me, 'Lord, ‘Lord’, and do not practice the things that I say?” Luke 6:46

“But he who does the truth comes to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, for they have been performed in GOD.” John 3:21

******************“And let out children also learn to excel in good works,******in order to meet cases of necessity, so that they may not be unfruitful.” Tit 3:14

******“Yes, working together with Him we entreat you not to receive the grace of GOD in vain… On the contrary, let us conduct ourselves in all circumstances as GOD’s ministers, … in labors…”
2Cor 6:1,5

“May you walk worthily of GOD and please Him in all things, bearing fruit in every ******good work ******and growing in the knowledge of GOD.” Col 1:10

" But let everyone test his own work, so he will have glory in himself only, and not in comparison with another. For each one will bear his own burden." Gal 6:4-5

“And they who have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment.” John 5:29

“If you know that he is just, know that everyone also ******who does what is just ******has been born of Him.” 1John 2:29

---

Continued…

Notworthy

---

 

[NotWorthy]

… Continued

*** “I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, but which were ready to die. For I do not find your works complete before my GOD.” Rev 3:1-2

“the Lord will render him according to his deeds.” 2Tim 4:14

******“Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, FOR THEIR WORKS FOLLOW THEM’.” Rev 14:13
The works which you do in this life will follow you forever.

******“And another scroll was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the scrolls, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.” Rev 20:12

“And her children I will strike with death, …, and I will give to each of you according to your works.” Rev 2:23

“Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.” Rev 22:12

“And the world with its lust is passing away, but he who does the will of GOD abides forever.” 1John 2:17

With all of these verses in support of doing good works, how can anyone say ******works ***are not required for salvation?

     ***Works: ******We ******work ******out what GOD ******works ******in our hearts. ******Works ******are the fruit of faith. ******

---

Bene7:

NotWorthy, since you believe you can lose your salvation by sinning, tell me then of what significance was the cross of Christ and God imputing your sins upon Him? How does the cross, the substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of Christ, play into your faith? Do you just believe it happened historically but it has no real significant bearing on your personal salvation?

Bene, how can you ask that? Do you really think Catholics don’t recognize the sacrifice of the Cross? What in the world is the subject of this whole thread?
Christ died to free us from sin, and all of our sins are forgiven, we are cleansed, and we are sanctified. But if we sin, then we risk that salvation - for salvation is a process, not a one time thing. Please tell my you don’t read the bible with those “Once Saved, Always Saved” Blinders on!
Do you honestly hold to what Luther said, “I can have sex with 100 women every day for the rest of my life, and still rest assured that I have achieved salvation”?(Yes, I’m paraphrasing. I hope I got it accurate).

We Catholics call that “Welfare Religion”. Well at least my parish does.

God Bless!

Notworthy

 

[VociMike]

bene7:

Well, you could use the same principle on He being the bread of life.

Not at all. He was calling us to eat and drink. Humans are perfectly capable of that.

Was He actually saying all Christians are to be ritual cannibals?

No more than He was calling us to be symbolic ritural cannibals. Cannibalism is the eating of dead human flesh. To call the Eucharist cannibalism is to deny both the Incarnation and the Resurection. Catholics (as well as Orthodox) do not deny either of these truths

I say, as you say concerning the “Door” and we being actual sheep, "of course not."When He says that the bread which He gives for the life of the world He, to me, obviously is making reference to His crucifixion…, the subtitutionary sacrifice of Himself for the sins of the world, and all who subsequently believe in Him have eternal life. This is what He came out of Heave to do, it was His work. This is made VERY evident when He says:

“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” They said therefore to Him, “Lord, evermore give us this bread.” Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me (i.e., by faith) shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst” (John 6:33-35).

You say that the bread is His crucifixion, and yet He says we must eat the bread. Are we then supposed to eat His crucifixion?

Also, none have yet answered my question on how the Eucharist (as it is taught) is the actual crucified body and blood of Jesus. And not just body and blood, but His whole, divine Being (body, blood, soul and divinity) Yet He was raised with the SAME body in which He died. Remember, the tomb was empty, no dead, crucified body was found there. His crucified, dead body was raised in new life, glorified and ascended into Heaven. How then, as a Man in bodily form, can Jesus possibly be both dead and alive (crucified and resurrected) at the same time?

The Eucharist is not a bloody sacrifice. That occurred once, on Calvary. Where do you read that the Eucharist is the crucified Christ? Jesus clearly indicated that His sacrifice was more than just a bloody sacrifice at the last table, when He said “this is my body which is given for you”, and “this is my blood…which is poured out”. Not “will be”, but “is”

Also, how could matter (His body) be omnipresent? In Spirit Jesus can be, and is, omnipresent (He being God), but in His humanity, i.e., in bodily form, He cannot. As a Man He can be in only one place at a time. And now, as a Man, He sits, bodily, at the right hand of the Majesty on High. This was one of the reasons the Spirit was sent after Jesus ascended into Heaven

bodily. The Spirit performs His ministry on earth omnipresently. No bodily limitations.

What are the “bodily limitations” of His glorified body, and how do you know? So then Jesus performs His ministry outside of His body? He leaves His body in some heavenly closet while He comes to earth? Considering that 'whenever two or three gather in my name, I am in their midst", and two or three are always gathered somewhere on earth, it sounds like Jesus is forever out of His body. The more you think about this notion, the crazier it gets.

 

[bene7]

Aron I:

What constitutes an unworthy manner? Are you defining “trivializing the sacrifice of Christ” as being sinful and worthy of judgement. What if someone had accepted Christ? Can a single act of sin cause one to lose salvation? So you seem to propose. Of course, this is Biblical, read Hebrews 10:26-27.

I seem to propose nothing of the sort. What happened in 1 Cor. 11:30 was Divine disciplinary action on that undisciplined church. You’re very mistaken if you think that those who died, and were saved, lost their salvation by that disciplinary action. Heb. 10:26-27 is addressing Jews who fellowshiped in the congregation of believers but they themselves never fully believed (trusted) in the sacrifice of Christ alone. They regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant and insulted the Spirit of grace. That is unbelief. The author of Hebrews was warning those Jews who were walking the fence between faith in Christ and reverting back to Judaism and its sacrificial system.

That same principle and warning can be addressed to the religious man today. Many men are religious, but not all religious men have actually believed. By clinging on to their religious system of works and self-righteousness, rather than the imputed righteousness of Christ, they insult the Spirit of GRACE and trample under foot the Son of God and regard as unclean (impotent) the blood of the covenant (by which ALL sins are forgiven). Like the the Law abiding Jew he hopes to propitiate God through his own merits based on his “good works.” To him sovereign GRACE is repugnant.

Blessing to you,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Philthy:

yea we’ve been through this, like, 4000 times. Christ calls belief a work and you will claim otherwise.

Four thousand times and you still don’t get it. Amazing! If you think Christ is calling belief a “work,” then clearly what He is saying there shoots clean over your head.

And he contrasts belief with disobedience, yet you cannot come to grips with belief having elements of obedience in it. It begins to sound like a clanging symbol.

Belief will certainly cause one to desire to be obedient to Christ, but it’s only the belief itself that saves unto eternal life.

NotWorthy, since you believe you can lose your salvation by sinning, tell me then of what significance was the cross of Christ and God imputing your sins upon Him?

You answered for Notworthy:
It made available the gift of eternal life which we were previously separated from. We can accept it - or reject it - at any time during our lives.

First of all you were never separated from “eternal” life - you never had it. You were born spiritually dead and destined to die physically the moment you were conceived. Secondly, nowhere in the Bible does it say one can accept or reject eternal life. One may accept (through faith) Jesus Christ, believing that on the cross He took upon Himself his sins and died in his stead. One rejects Jesus Christ when he refuses to believe the work of redemption which Christ accomplished for him on the cross. To the one who believes eternal life is then given as a free GIFT. But the one who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

But my question to Notworthy was how is it that if Christ died for his sins he can still lose his salvation by his sins? Of what significance, to what purpose then, was the imputation of his sins to the Sin-Bearer 2000 years ago?

Blessings to you,
Bene

 

[bene7]

I find it amazing that all of you say you take it literally when Jesus says to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Yet none of you believe Him when He states:

“He who eats My flesh and drinks my blood HAS eternal life…” (John 6:54).

If at Mass you believe you actually eat His flesh and drink His blood, how is it none of you can say you actually now HAVE eternal life because you celebrate Mass? Remember, you cannot lose something that is eternal. It is either eternal or it is not. It cannot be both. The whole point Jesus is making in John six is that by eating and drinking you’ll have life (eternal) in you (vs. 53). If - contrary to Christ’s literal words - you don’t receive eternal life when celebrating Mass (eating and drinking Him), then what’s the purpose of it? Were His words empty?

Blessings,
Bene

 

[NotWorthy]

bene7:

I find it amazing that all of you say you take it literally when Jesus says to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Yet none of you believe Him when He states:

“He who eats My flesh and drinks my blood HAS eternal life…” (John 6:54).

If at Mass you believe you actually eat His flesh and drink His blood, how is it none of you can say you actually now HAVE eternal life because you celebrate Mass? Remember, you cannot lose something that is eternal. It is either eternal or it is not. It cannot be both. The whole point Jesus is making in John six is that by eating and drinking you’ll have life (eternal) in you (vs. 53). If - contrary to Christ’s literal words - you don’t receive eternal life when celebrating Mass (eating and drinking Him), then what’s the purpose of it? Were His words empty?

Blessings,
Bene

Bene, Yes we have eternal life, but we don’t necessarily have it for eternity. Is that clear?

OK, let’s look at it this way.
A) Eternal Life is a gift from God, freely given by our act of Faith, and nothing we could have done would have earned it. Yes, Bene, we are saved by Faith! But we can reject that gift at any time, thus losing our state of Grace. Are there any examples of that in the Bible? Adam and Eve, freely rejected the gift of eternal life (remember you said it was eternal), and lost their state of grace.
B) Christ did die once for all! Of course, Bene, and the Choirs sings, “Amen”! And with that Grace, our sins are forgiven, praise God! But we can reject that gift. How? by sinning!
C) But, I ask you, Bene, why did Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive men’s sins if Christ already forgave them? Notice, in Matthew, that the crowds praised God for giving this power (forgiveness of sins) to men. (Paraphrased). Not Man, Bene, but Men! Christ instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation to restore us to a state of Grace, so we can partake in that Eternal Life.

God Bless!

Notworthy

Notworthy

 

[mercygate]

SPOKENWORD:

I am the bread that comes down from heaven. To me this bread is Gods Word. If you eat the Word of God and get it inside of you ,you will have eternal life.This is the food Christ was talking about. Jesus is the Word. It is eating of this bread (Word) that will give us wisdom, understanding, revelation knowledge and knowing what Gods will in our lives is. God Bless

And the Word was made flesh . . . .

 

[bene7]

NotWorthy:

Bene, Yes we have eternal life, but we don’t necessarily have it for eternity. Is that clear?

Please read John 6:54. Eternal MEANS eternal. You can’t lose something that’s eternal. Jesus said, “He who eat my flesh and drinks My blood HAS eternal life and I WILL raise Him up on the last day.” You claim to eat His flesh and drink His blood yet you still say you don’t have eternal life “necessarily,” eternally. That my friend is a total contradiction.

You take Him literally about eating and drinking, but refuse to believe Him about HAVING eternal life. Yet that’s the reason HE says you’re to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Blessings,
Bene