John 6 and Eucharist?

[Kay_Cee]

bene7:

Please read John 6:54. Eternal MEANS eternal. You can’t lose something that’s eternal. Jesus said, “He who eat my flesh and drinks My blood HAS eternal life and I WILL raise Him up on the last day.” You claim to eat His flesh and drink His blood yet you still say you don’t have eternal life “necessarily,” eternally. That my friend is a total contradiction.

You take Him literally about eating and drinking, but refuse to believe Him about HAVING eternal life. Yet that’s the reason HE says you’re to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Blessings,
Bene

Why do you assume something eternal cannot be lost?

Eternal life is a gift. The adjective *eternal *modifies the noun *life. *But in the sentence I bolded above, it sounds like you think the *gift *is eternal. That is not what the text says.

The state of being eternal is a quality *life *possesses. The text does not say that the state of being eternal is a quality the *gift *possesses.

Nowhere does the text say you keep the gift eternally. Nowhere does the text say you cannot take that gift and dump it into the trash. If you think it does, you’re reading something into the text that is not there.

 

[NotWorthy]

The text says something like, “No one can take it away”. It doesn’t say, “No one can give it away”.

Notworthy

 

[MariaG]

bene7:

Please read John 6:54. Eternal MEANS eternal. You can’t lose something that’s eternal. Jesus said, “He who eat my flesh and drinks My blood HAS eternal life and I WILL raise Him up on the last day.” You claim to eat His flesh and drink His blood yet you still say you don’t have eternal life “necessarily,” eternally. That my friend is a total contradiction.

You take Him literally about eating and drinking, but refuse to believe Him about HAVING eternal life. Yet that’s the reason HE says you’re to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Blessings,
Bene

So you take literally “has eternal life” to mean we can never lose it but reject Eat my flesh and drink my blood as literal? At least be consistently literal:ehh:

 

[Philthy]

bene7:
Belief will certainly cause one to desire to be obedient to Christ, but it’s only the belief itself that saves unto eternal life.

Here is where we get into semantics and practicalities.

On the side of semantics you will claim that there is an entity which you call faith which exists APART from obedience, and you will call this “belief” in Jesus Christ. I will choose to say that obedience is an INSEPARABLE element of faith which, of necessity, creates a response to the “belief in Jesus Christ”. If it makes you feel better, I will agree with you that a comatose who has “faith alone” can be saved by that faith.

On the side of practicalities, how, exactly are we to know that our faith is a saving faith? Are we not to test it, according to 1 John? I maintain that part of knowing our faith is through our response to it in our daily lives, ie through our actions. When confronted with the choice to fornicate or not, what will someone with saving faith choose? I say, he will choose to obey Christ and not fornicate. If one were to choose to fornicate what does that say about his faith in Christ? Does it say something about it or nothing? Does it remain a saving faith? Shall we say that Christs Grace abounds all the more when we sin? Of course not! This concept of faith as belief which does not translate into act is not particularly useful EXCEPT when dealing with someone who believes that actions alone bring salvation: neither of us believes that.

bene7:
First of all you were never separated from “eternal” life - you never had it.

Good pick - up! I should have said “in separation from” which does not imply that we were once in eternal life, simply that we were separate from it.

bene7:
Secondly, nowhere in the Bible does it say one can accept or reject eternal life. One may accept (through faith) Jesus Christ, believing that on the cross He took upon Himself his sins and died in his stead. One rejects Jesus Christ when he refuses to believe the work of redemption which Christ accomplished for him on the cross. To the one who believes eternal life is then given as a free GIFT. But the one who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

One can reject faith in Jesus Christ and through that reject the gift of eternal life. We have also covered this in detail…I will refresh your memory if necessary.

bene7:
But my question to Notworthy was how is it that if Christ died for his sins he can still lose his salvation by his sins? Of what significance, to what purpose then, was the imputation of his sins to the Sin-Bearer 2000 years ago?
Blessings to you,

Bene
The answers remain the same: the application of the forgiveness of sins accomplished by Christ has a temporal, conditional dimension. We sin, we ask for forgiveness and forgiveness is given - sequentially- all based on the eternal sacrifice of Christ.

Think of Christs directive on prayer: “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” Notice the many dimensions here: How do we forgive others? Sequentially, in response to the need. Completely, in the manner we have received forgiveness. Repeatedly, as the need arises. And notice, it is an inseparable response to the faith we have in Christ.

I enjoy your posts and feel your love for Christ. I hope my manner of speaking is not too abrasive…

His peace to you

 

[Philthy]

Kay Cee:

Why do you assume something eternal cannot be lost?

Eternal life is a gift. The adjective *eternal *modifies the noun *life. *But in the sentence I bolded above, it sounds like you think the *gift *is eternal. That is not what the text says.

The state of being eternal is a quality *life *possesses. The text does not say that the state of being eternal is a quality the *gift *possesses.

Nowhere does the text say you keep the gift eternally. Nowhere does the text say you cannot take that gift and dump it into the trash. If you think it does, you’re reading something into the text that is not there.

You saved me a post - good job

 

[bene7]

Kay Cee:

Why do you assume something eternal cannot be lost?

Eternal life is a gift. The adjective *eternal *modifies the noun *life. *But in the sentence I bolded above, it sounds like you think the *gift *is eternal. That is not what the text says.

You try to rationalize away the words of Christ. First of all neither I nor Christ say anything about it being a “gift” in John 6:54. PLEASE read it again:

“He who eat My flesh and drinks My blood HAS eternal life.”

He doesn’t say is “given” eternal life, He say HAS eternal life. He doesn’t say “hopes” to have eternal life, nor hopes to “keep” eternal lfe. He who eats and drinks HAS eternal life, and Christ emphatically states that He will raise him up on the last day. He doesn’t say He might, if he doesn’t lose it."

The life the eater and drinker HAS, Jesus says, is eternal. If it’s eternal it cannot be snuffed out. Please read it again and don’t rationalize it to fit your theological position.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Kay_Cee]

bene7:

You try to rationalize away the words of Christ. First of all neither I nor Christ say anything about it being a “gift” in John 6:54.

Surely you’re not going to argue with me that eternal life is something we earn.

PLEASE read it again:

“He who eat My flesh and drinks My blood HAS eternal life.”

He doesn’t say is “given” eternal life, He say HAS eternal life. He doesn’t say “hopes” to have eternal life, nor hopes to “keep” eternal lfe. He who eats and drinks HAS eternal life, and Christ emphatically states that He will raise him up on the last day. He doesn’t say He might, if he doesn’t lose it."

The life the eater and drinker HAS, Jesus says, is eternal. If it’s eternal it cannot be snuffed out. Please read it again and don’t rationalize it to fit your theological position.

Blessings,
Bene

Oh, yes it can!

Angels exist beyond time and space. They are, therefore, eternal. They live in a state of eternalness.

Well, God gave them eternal life. Some, obviously, rejected it. Just because God gave it to them did not mean they were incapable of rejecting it. If it were eternal in the manner you argue it is, demons would still possess it.

 

[Kurt_G]

Kay Cee:

…Angels exist beyond time and space. They are, therefore, eternal. They live in a state of eternalness.

Well, God gave them eternal life. Some, obviously, rejected it. Just because God gave it to them did not mean they were incapable of rejecting it. If it were eternal in the manner you argue it is, demons would still possess it.

That was good, Kay Cee… I’m sure bene has a response in the making, we’ll all just have to wait to see what it might be!

 

[bene7]

Philthy:

On the side of practicalities, how, exactly are we to know that our faith is a saving faith?

Salvation is a GIFT through faith. How does one know he has the gift of salvation? He has trusted in the Person and work of Jesus Christ who through HIS WORK on the cross procured the forgiveness of all his sins, paid the price of his redemption and reconciled him to the Father. How can you know the faith you have is saving faith? By knowing WHO, not what, you’ve put your trust in. If, ultimately, in your own works, then your faith is not saving faith. If, ultimately, in Christ who did it all FOR YOU, then that faith saves you. This is the test. The difference between WHO vs. WHAT.

One can reject faith in Jesus Christ and through that reject the gift of eternal life.

One does not “reject” faith in Jesus Christ. The one who does not believe in Him simply does not have the life and the wrath of God continues to abide on Him. There’s no lifetime of accepting and rejecting, having life, not having life. When one truly believes he is given, gift-wise, life eternal.

You want to test yourself to see if you’re in the “faith?” Ask yourself what you’re ultimately trusting in: a “Who,” or a “what?” Christ who did it for you, or you who are trying to achieve it.

We sin, we ask for forgiveness and forgiveness is given - sequentially- all based on the eternal sacrifice of Christ.

Where are we commanded to ask for forgiveness of sins? 1 John 1:9 states that when men confess, acknowledge, their sins, HE IS FAITHFUL and RIGHTEOUS to forgive them of their sins and to cleanse them of all unrighteousness. They’re not told to ask for forgiveness, but to confess that they have sinned, trusting in Christ who procured their forgiveness on the cross (see also Col. 1:13-14). Forgiveness of sins is proclaimed in the Gospel message to this world (Acts 10:43), to those who believe in Christ.

I enjoy your posts and feel your love for Christ. I hope my manner of speaking is not too abrasive…

I enjoy the dialogue as well. No, I don’t find it abrasive at all. We have opposing views so tension can at times arise, that’s only natural. And let’s face it, I’m not exactly in home territory. And, yes, I do love the Lord, and I rejoice in ALL that did for me through His self-less, sacrificial sacrifice of Himself for the forgiveness of my sins and the free gifts of eternal life and justification.

I know you love Him too, and you can fully trust that He did it all. For this He was born into this world - to die in our stead, that new life in Him be given freely and eternally to those who will trust in Him.

In Christ,
Bene

 

[ncgolf]

bene7:

The life the eater and drinker HAS, Jesus says, is eternal. If it’s eternal it cannot be snuffed out. Please read it again and don’t rationalize it to fit your theological position.

(edited for relevence)

My question is if you believe that eating Christ’s body brings an eternal life … why are you not participating in it. You cannot get it from a Protestant Church … only one place has it and that is in a Catholic Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

Did God give Adam and Eve the gift of life eternal? Did they reject that gift? How? By going against the Father’s Will.

This lesson is repeated numerous times in the Old Testament. Believing and doing the Father’s Will brings you closer to God, rejecting His Will brings separation and exile.

Notworthy

 

[bene7]

Kay Cee:

Surely you’re not going to argue with me that eternal life is something we earn.

My argument is based on what Jesus literally states in John 6:54. You seem to keep dodging it.

Oh, yes it can!

Angels exist beyond time and space. They are, therefore, eternal. They live in a state of eternalness.

Well, God gave them eternal life. Some, obviously, rejected it. Just because God gave it to them did not mean they were incapable of rejecting it. If it were eternal in the manner you argue it is, demons would still possess it.

All angels exist in a state of “eternality.” It’s how they were created, not gifted. But living in a “state” of eternality is not the same as possessing “eternal LIFE.” The angels that fell with Satan (and Satan himself), continue to live in a “state” of eternality, but they do not, nor cannot, possess “eternal LIFE” which comes through Christ. Our souls exist in a state of eternality, they cannot non-exist. But when we’re born into this world we’re born “dead” to the things of God (see 1 Cor. 3:14), needing to be made ALIVE. This is accomplished when one trusts in Christ and HIS LIFE (resurrected life) is given to him.

EPH 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

COL 2:13 “And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,”

I hope you can comprehend the difference. It’s most important that you do.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

NotWorthy:

Did God give Adam and Eve the gift of life eternal? Did they reject that gift? How? By going against the Father’s Will.

This lesson is repeated numerous times in the Old Testament. Believing and doing the Father’s Will brings you closer to God, rejecting His Will brings separation and exile.

Notworthy

Adam and Eve were created in a state of sinlessness, in a state of innocence. They did not possess eternal life. They were capable of sinning. They did. They died spiritually and eventually physically. They didn’t “reject the gift,” they sinned and fell from their created “state” of innocence. You and I, born in Adam, are born in need of new LIFE. And this new LIFE if gifted to the one who has faith in Jesus.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[ncgolf]

bene7:

Adam and Eve were created in a state of sinlessness, in a state of innocence. They did not possess eternal life. They were capable of sinning. They did. They died spiritually and eventually physically. They didn’t “reject the gift,” they sinned and fell from their created “state” of innocence. You and I, born in Adam, are born in need of new LIFE. And this new LIFE if gifted to the one who has faith in Jesus.

Blessings,
Bene

No, I believe the new life is given by Baptism, not by faith. Baptism removes the stain of orginal sin and bring us into the Body of Christ. We then belong to Christ. Sin is a product of free will … we don’t lose our free will ever … even in heaven. In heaven we choose never to sin.

 

[NotWorthy]

And yes, Adam and Eve did have eternal life. In Genesis 3:2-3 -
*** The woman answered the serpent: "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’***

All life is a gift from God - Be it temporal of Salvific.

Notworthy

 

[Kurt_G]

Since we can all agree that “By Jesus’ Holy Cross He Has Redeemed the World”, much of what bene offers is believed also by us. So I pick here just one important point of difference:

bene7:

How can you know the faith you have is saving faith? By knowing WHO, not what, you’ve put your trust in. If, ultimately, in your own works, then your faith is not saving faith.

We agree with you.
I think you accuse the Church of something for which we are not guilty.
I believe it was the Pelagians, for one, who taught this, and their error was condemned as heresy by the early Catholic Church.

We may have some misunderstandings among us all, of what constitutes “our own works”. Because for Catholics, once we connect with God through Jesus, it becomes “Christ working in us”, not really anything we ourselves would take credit for. I think that’s proper Catholic theology (but I might let some others improve the wording).

We can, however, speak of “obedience” as a necessary part of faith, with good Scriptural support: In the book of Romans, St. Paul’s very first mention of “faith” is used in a phrase “the obedience of faith”. And, his very last mention of “faith” in that book is again “the obedience of faith”.

So, depending upon which theology we hold to, we either dismiss these parts of Scripture as “not really relevant”, or we try to tie “obedience” to some type of “action” on our part, involving our faith. That “action” I suppose is called “works” by others.

Then, where I would see myself as only trying to be “obedient to the faith” as encouraged by St. Paul, others might see me as trying to earn my own way to eternal life.

Everyone’s been through this so many times, bene, and there seems to be so much Scripture which one must discard, to hold to a “faith alone” theology.

Grace alone? We’re with you 100%.
Faith alone? We have our differences, unless you can agree to accept the phrase “obedience of faith” as St. Paul did, and let us call our “actions in faith” obedience, instead of works.
God Bless Us All!

 

[Kay_Cee]

bene7:

My argument is based on what Jesus literally states in John 6:54. You seem to keep dodging it.All angels exist in a state of “eternality.” It’s how they were created, not gifted.

Uh, didn’t you argue that eternal life is not a gift? Sounds here like you’re saying it is a gift. You seem to keep dodging whether or not eternal life is a gift. If it is a gift, it’s always a gift, whether or not John 6 calls it a gift.

But living in a “state” of eternality is not the same as possessing “eternal LIFE.” The angels that fell with Satan (and Satan himself), continue to live in a “state” of eternality, but they do not, nor cannot, possess “eternal LIFE” which comes through Christ. Our souls exist in a state of eternality, they cannot non-exist. But when we’re born into this world we’re born “dead” to the things of God (see 1 Cor. 3:14), needing to be made ALIVE. This is accomplished when one trusts in Christ and HIS LIFE (resurrected life) is given to him.

How does this apply to angels? Are you saying they were created “dead”?

EPH 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

COL 2:13 “And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,”

These quotes deal with sinful human beings, not angels.

I hope you can comprehend the difference. It’s most important that you do.

Blessings,
Bene

What I seem to be getting from you is that God created the angels, and at this point they existed. Then, later, He granted some of them eternal life. Is that what you’re saying?

 

[bene7]

(Edited off-topic portion of discussion)

My question is if you believe that eating Christ’s body brings an eternal life … why are you not participating in it. You cannot get it from a Protestant Church … only one place has it and that is in a Catholic Church.

I don’t believe that literally eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ brings eternal life. And that’s not what Jesus says in John 6:54. He emphatically states that those who eat and drink HAVE eternal life. It is you who believe you literally eat and drink His body and blood but don’t believe you HAVE eternal life when you do so. You take the eating and drinking literally, but you do not take literally what he states about the one who eats and drinks.

I believe that one is “given” eternal LIFE not BY eating and drinking His literal body and blood, but through BELIEVING in Him, i.e., who He is and all that He did FOR ME. I do not interpret the eating and drinking in John six as literal, but symbolic of belief, and at the time of belief HIS LIFE is given to me and now RESIDES, permanently, IN ME (John 6:35, 48-51). He gives me new life IN HIM, and that LIFE is eternal. I am no longer in Adam, but in Christ, the only source God has provided for new life. It’s one of the reasons He came into this world.

I once did not “know” God, but now I do, being made alive IN CHRIST. I cannot not know Him. I’ve been “born again” by the Spirit, made alive to the things of God. And just as I cannot be un-born physically, I most certainly cannot be un-born (again) spiritually. I most certainly WILL be raised up physically (resurrected) on the last day, as Christ emphatically promises in John 6:54. Because the one who eats and drinks (believes) HAS eternal life, i.e, His resurrected life IN HIM. Guaranteed by the “bread” He gave for the life of the world (John 6:51).

Blessings,
Bene

 

[ncgolf]

bene7:

They DO NOT. If you believe this then you have absolutely no understanding what what this LIFE is which God gives through faith in Christ.

My point was that they are eternal beings, whey they spend eternity is the question.

My eternal life state occurs when I am judged at my death, not one second before. This goes back to once saved, always saved. Sorry but that formula does not work. No one knows how many are saved, how many are saved but the Father alone. Christ himself would not say how many but says “strive to enter”. Now I may have confidence that I am in a state of grace, by using the means the Catholic Church offers … Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Holy Eucharist. By using those means … ones Christ left us I may have confidence I am walking in a state of grace. I have confidence but not assurance. The reason for any doubt is sin. Sin keeps us Christ at a distance.

bene7:

This is what the Gospel message is (John 3:14-18).I don’t believe that literally eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ brings eternal life. And that’s not what Jesus says in John 6:54. He emphatically states that those who eat and drink HAVE eternal life. It is you who believe you literally eat and drink His body and blood but don’t believe you HAVE eternal life when you do so.

I do have eternal life but it is at death I attain it … not here on earth. Here on earth my will is sometimes at odds with Gods … in other words I sin. We, Catholics, believe that sin can keep us from God forever and even though God offered it, I can reject it … by sin. It goes back to free will. What I hear you saying is that you have the absolute confidence that you will be in heaven, regardless of any actions you take from now until your death.

 

[MariaG]

:tiphat: bene7,

(Edited for relevence after thread has been pruned.)

And you still have avoided any comment on the fact that if the words Eat my flesh and Drink my blood were taken figuratively, it would mean we must harm Christ or we have no life in us.

CA Library Christ in the Eucharist
But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, “The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense” (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.

Nor have you addressed the issue of it is meant “in spirit”, many of Paul’s writings would be nonsense.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16). So when we receive Communion, we actually participate in the body and blood of Christ, not just eat symbols of them. Paul also said, “Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29). “To answer for the body and blood” of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine “unworthily” be so serious?** Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ. **

---

But truly, :tiphat: :clapping: