John 6 and Eucharist?

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sandusky:
Usually Catholics recoil at that when a non-Catholic brings it up, saying that it is a re-presentation. I think that ThomasMore’s statement is in disagreement the RCC.

ThomasMore’s statement is physically and logically impossible, and it is a contradiction. A once-for-all sacrifice is just that. It is, by definition, not repeatable.
ZIKKARON. There I’ve said it for the 4th time in this thread. The Eucharist is a memorial, we all agree on this as it is explicit in the Bible. What you don’t realize is that memorial in hebrew is zikkaron. Zikkaron means to make a past event present. When Jews celebrate Passover, it is a memorial, but by memorial they mean that they are actually present in the past event.

The Eucharist is the same as calvary. The past event is made present. It is really a simple concept. Please don’t dismiss this as bene7 did without actually researching it.
 
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sandusky:
This is very New Age, Orwellian New Speak, Depak Chopra-like language.

What are you saying, in plain language, please?
Excuse me? Read the martyrdom of Polycarp. The flames over-arch the body of the martyr and he has the appearance of baked bread. Justin Martyr speaks of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, so does Ignatius; Ignatius refers to his own impending martyrdom in Eucharistic terms.

There is nothing New Age, Orwellian, New Speak or Depak Chopra-like in ANYTHING I write, and I find it grotesque that you characterize me as such.
 
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sandusky:
I think that Martyr and Ignatius are excluded in the question. They were not apostles, and you cannot show anywhere in the writings of the apostles, which the Catholic church claims to have given us, that they speak about the Eucharist at all, except the description of the Last Supper, and Paul’s admonition concerning partaking unworthily of the bread and the cup.
Good grief. You leave out Hebrews 10 and two thirds of Revelation.

Ignatius may not have been an apostle but he was the immediate disciple of John, and was martyred between 110 and 115 A.D. Justin Martyr writes before 150 A.D. What they did, they received from the Apostles. The Didache, known as *The Teaching of the Apostles, *is dated from perhaps the 80s – before the death of John. It, too, speaks of the eucharistic liturgy.
 
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sandusky:
Thank you, Mercygate, you have are finally coming to your senses. It is good to shift the discussion away from the Eucharist as a miracle, because it is an argument you cannot win.

Anyone else ready to concede, and agree with Mercygate that the Eucharist is really better called a Mystery, than a Miracle?
Coming to my senses? I have never left my senses. And I am doing my best not to take leave of my good nature, though it is a struggle when I am confronted with statements like this one.

That the Eucharistic Presence is a Mystery, and not a miracle, is the teaching of the Church. That Christ is fully present in it, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is also the teaching of the Church.

All the thunder on this thread about transubstantiation is a quibble. The definition of transubstantiation is an attempt to render the mystery apprehensible to the rational mind.
 
I didn’t want a Church that was right when I was right, I wanted a Church that was right when I was wrong. G.K.

Sandusky, do you ever think outside of your opinion??
Or what others have told you?
 
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sandusky:
This statement is absurd, and illogical, and, if I am not mistaken, it is not what the Catholic Church teaches.
Well, then you don’t know anything about the Catholic Church, because even the most basic reading of her teaching will show that this is the case. Of course, what would I know? I only know this because I’ve read the Council of Trent, the Catechism, the Church Fathers, John Paul II’s Encyclical on the Eucharist, and a lot of other major theological works on the Eucharist.

Why is it illogical? Jesus is before the Father in heaven. He is outside the constraints of space and Time. His One Sacrifice is always before the Father, and can be applied to specific instances in time. There is no contradiction, no more so than there is that One God can be three persons. Please try and explain to me why you reject the notion of the mass as a sacrifice, and yet accept the Trinity.
 
sandusky said:
Philippians 2:5-8

5…Christ Jesus, who,…taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men]/b]. Being found in appearance as a man

That is the word of God; That is the form Christ took, He has never taken the form of bread and wine.

In the O.T., God sent plagues on Pharoah. What He said He would do, was visibly manifest. The reason for that was so Pharoah, and God’s people would know that He was God.

Same with the parting of the Red Sea, the manna in wilderness, Joshua at Jericho, the Lord halting the sun’s movement for Joshua, etc.

The miracle of Christ was attested to by the outward, visiblemiracles He performed. That was so people would know that it was from God.

Acts 2:22
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

IOW, the visibly seen miracles proved that they were from God.

Compare that with John 3:2:

*2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, **we know that You have come from God…for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” ***

Do you understand?

Miracle seen = From God
Miracle unseen = Not from God

That is a gauge that God has given His people, so that they won’t be fooled.

Neither Christ, nor the apostles speak of the bread and wine in terms of a miracle, either at the Last Supper, or at any other time. The only reference made by an apostle to the Lord’s Supper is made by Paul, and he clearly calls it the bread and the cup, not the transubstantiated body and blood.

Therefore, IMHO, if someone, or some church, claims that it is presenting a miracle from God, but the miracle is not observable, God’s people should flee from them.

Yes, and in the future, many will say, “Lord, Lord…”

That Christ spoke figuratively in the Gospels is truth; and that He worked miracles is truth, and all of His miracles were seen.

Not a single, solitary quotation that you have shown requires that all miracles that God performs be seen.

When Our Lord was conceived in Our Lady’s womb, could she see it? Could she feel it? Can women feel when conception takes place? Sure, she could feel Him kicking afterwards, but this in itself is not the miracle of the conception. This is a fruit of the miracle. Likewise, we cannot see Our Lord in the Eucharist, but we know that He is there. We know He is there through Faith in God’s words, just as Mary knew that Our Lord was inside Her through faith in what the Archangel had said. We experience the fruits of receiving Our Lord in communion. Believe me, I have. An increase in purity, among other things. An increase in humility. Likewise, Mary saw fruits of the conception of Our Lord through her entire life.
 
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sandusky:
This statement is absurd, and illogical, and, if I am not mistaken, it is not what the Catholic Church teaches.
Well, let’s just see what John Paul II has to say about it, in His Encyclical on the Eucharist…

“The mass makes present thesacrifice of the Cross; it does not add to that sacrifice nor does it multiply it. What is repeated is its memorial celebration, its ‘commemorative representation’…which makes Christ’s one, definitive redemptive sacrifice always present in time. The sacrificial nature of the Eucharistic mystery cannot therefore be understood as something separate, independent of the Cross or only indirectly referring to the sacrifice of Calvary…The sacramental re-presentation of CHrist’s sacrifice, crowned by the resurrection, involves a most special presence which…‘is called real’ not as a way of excluding all other types of presnce as if they were ‘not real,’ but because it is a presence in the fullest sense: a substantial presence whereby Christ, the God-Man, is wholly and entirely present.”

Any basic reading of the Catholic Church will show this teaching. Perhaps you should actually sit down one day and actually read what she teaches.

We need a way to be able to partake of the sacrifice of Calvary in order to be saved. The Mass enables us to do that. It does not add to that sacrifice, but rather make it present in time so that we can partake of it.

Christ’s sacrifice is always before the Father. Heaven is outside time and space. Chirst, as a “priest according to the order of Melchizedek,” is before the Father applying His once-and-for-all sacrifice to specific situations. Christ’s actions are carried our on Earth by His Priests. Melchizedek, if you will recall, offered bread and wine when he came out to meet Abraham. Likewise, Jesus, through His priests on Earth, offered His Body and Blood under the appearances of bread and wine. He is thus a priest “according to the manner of Melchizedek.”

Christ’s bloody sacrifice is finished, never to be repeated again. It’s merits are inexhaustable. The Mass simply makes that sacrifice present in time and space, so that I may have that sacrifice applied to me.
 
Finally–and this is the last comment I am going to contribute to this discussion–I challenge you Protestants who insist that miracles have to be seen (and I guess I’m retracting my earlier concesssion), to tell me exactly how you can reconcile that idea with your belief that Scripture is the inspried Word of God. Did you actually see the Holy Spirit move the Apostles and the Old Testament saints to write down Holy Writ? Let’s say that you lived back in apostolic times, and were an unbeliever. Let’s say that you were curious about what Christians teach, so you went to see St. Matthew. You saw him writing. You ask him what he’s writing about. He says that, well he really isn’t the primary writer, it’s God who’s telling him what to write. You would consider the writing of the Bible to be a miracle, would you not?

What physical evidence do you have, then, that God was inspring him to write? Could you see God moving his hand? No, of course not. All you could see is a man sitting at a table and writing on a piece of paper. No evidence that God is writing, is there?

You may respond, “well, I wouldn’t be able to see it, but Matthew certainly felt inspired by the Holy Spirit.” To which I respond: where does it say in the Bible that the Apostles felt anything when they wrote down Holy Writ? Furthermore, even if they claim that they did, this still doesn’t solve anything. You have to take them at their word that they’re feeling something, just as we take Our Lord at His word when He says, “this is my Body,” and “this is my Blood.” You’re willing to take mere man at his word without actually seeing any physical evidence, but you’re not willing to take Our Lord, God Himself, at His word?

You’re willing to take St. Paul at his word when he says, “All Scripture is inspired by God,” etc., even though from appearances it looks no different from any other human work, yet you are not willing to take Our Lord at His word when He says that the bread and wine are His Body and Blood, because they still appear to be bread and wine?

We can’t physically verify it anymore than you can physically verify that God actually inspried the Apostles to write the sacred books. All you can do is rely on faith (and, by the way, you are relying on Tradition for knowing the Canon of the Scriptures, whether you like it or not. Please show me where in the Bible it says that Hebrews, the Letter of St. James, etc., are actually inspried by God. Don’t bring up 2 Timothy 3:16, because that doesn’t say what specifically constitutes the scriptures. Show me where the Bible says that the Epistle of St. Jude is inspired by God. It doesn’t. You, like us, rely on Tradition for that. We’re just more consistent than you are).

You might also respond, “but we know it’s inspired because of the wonderful way it’s helped us respond to Christ!” Indeed, scripture does do this. So, however, does the Eucharist. We can testify to the wonderful changes it has wrought in our lives.

You ask where does the phrase “transubstantiation” occur in the Bible. It is inferred from the fact that Our Lord says that the bread and wine are His Body and Blood. By your rationale, I should ask where does the phrase “Trinity” appear in the Bible, and then reject it as false since the word does not appear there. We infer the process. Likewise, we also infer the Divinity of the Holy Spirit. Where does Scripture explicitly say that the Holy Spirit is God? It doesn’t. We infer that as well, and rightly so.

Finally, I will leave you all with this to ponder: where does the word “Bible” appear in the Bible? Please show me the book, chapter and verse. What? The word "Bible: isn’t in the Bible? Then it’s nothing more than a tradition of man, added by later generations of false Christians! We must reject this false doctrine immediately!

God bless you all, and may you all have a very Merry Christmas! 👍
 
For Bene and Sandusky,

I, for one, am not trying to make you believe the Catholic position. My argument is that it is possible and logical based on Scripture alone, both old and new testament. There is sufficient imagery where one could believe it is possible in the Eucharist. You may say your interpretation is, " incorrect but I see where you can draw that conclusion." What you cannot say with any truth is that it is not possible and if you do say that it must be a stronger arugument that the “has”, “have”, “had” argument.

Many have quoted ECF’s in the Catholic Church, beginning with Ignatius going through Aquinas and Augustine and even through John Paul II. I am sure if I asked either Mercygate, ThomasMore or Mickey they could provide a much longer list of writings and their authors. In fact, if any of you can, provide a sample list of your favorites.

What I ask of Bene and Sandusky is to provide some sort of bibliography for their postion, outside their private interpretation. If you can provide those names beginning with the same time period as Ignatius.

What I am not asking for is commentary on existing Catholic writers but of purely non-Catholic writers refuting the Real Presence or the Catholic belief in the Eucharist.
 
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sandusky:
Anyone else ready to concede, and agree with Mercygate that the Eucharist is really better called a Mystery, than a Miracle?
The consecration at the Mass, yes a mystery. The Eucharist at consecration turning into heart tissue, (during a Mass by St. Padre Pio), no … that was a micacle. So the Eucharist is a mystery which over time God has granted some glimpse into its true nature through some miraculous events. Mystery, miracle … you still would not believe.
 
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mercygate:
Coming to my senses? I have never left my senses. And I am doing my best not to take leave of my good nature, though it is a struggle when I am confronted with statements like this one.

That the Eucharistic Presence is a Mystery, and not a miracle, is the teaching of the Church. That Christ is fully present in it, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is also the teaching of the Church.

All the thunder on this thread about transubstantiation is a quibble. The definition of transubstantiation is an attempt to render the mystery apprehensible to the rational mind.
Smooth.

Eucharist a miracle? The Church doesn’t teach that, and nobody here has ever said that.

Smooth.
 
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ThomasMore1535:
Why is it illogical? Jesus is before the Father in heaven. He is outside the constraints of space and Time. His One Sacrifice is always before the Father, and can be applied to specific instances in time. There is no contradiction, no more so than there is that One God can be three persons. Please try and explain to me why you reject the notion of the mass as a sacrifice, and yet accept the Trinity.
Oh yes, the “God is outside the constraints of time” argument. Wake up man; it is logically impossible for the mass to be the same sacrifice as that of Calvary. Ask Philthy, he loves logic.

The trinity is clearly stated in the scripture, and the mass is nowhere mentioned, and the Lord’s Supper is not called a sacrifice.

And again, I do not think that the Church teaches the mass as the same sacrifice, but a re-presentation of that sacrifice.
 
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ThomasMore1535:
Not a single, solitary quotation that you have shown requires that all miracles that God performs be seen.
ThomasMore, believe as you will.
 
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ThomasMore1535:
Well, let’s just see what John Paul II has to say about it, in His Encyclical on the Eucharist…

“The mass makes present thesacrifice of the Cross; it does not add to that sacrifice nor does it multiply it. What is repeated is its memorial celebration, its ‘commemorative representation’…which makes Christ’s one, definitive redemptive sacrifice always present in time. The sacrificial nature of the Eucharistic mystery cannot therefore be understood as something separate, independent of the Cross or only indirectly referring to the sacrifice of Calvary…The sacramental re-presentation of CHrist’s sacrifice, crowned by the resurrection, involves a most special presence which…‘is called real’ not as a way of excluding all other types of presnce as if they were ‘not real,’ but because it is a presence in the fullest sense: a substantial presence whereby Christ, the God-Man, is wholly and entirely present.”/quote]
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ThomasMore1535:
Any basic reading of the Catholic Church will show this teaching. Perhaps you should actually sit down one day and actually read what she teaches.
I left the church 40 years ago. I know what it teaches; I know all the changes since I left. The morph continues.
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ThomasMore1535:
We need a way to be able to partake of the sacrifice of Calvary in order to be saved. The Mass enables us to do that.
Neither Christ, nor the apostles teach that. It is not the Gospel, it cannot save, and that is the problem.
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ThomasMore1535:
Christ’s bloody sacrifice is finished, never to be repeated again.
Finally, you admit that the mass is not the same sacrifice.
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ThomasMore1535:
The Mass simply makes that sacrifice present in time and space, so that I may have that sacrifice applied to me.
Unbelievable.
 
Sandusky, I love to chat with fellow christians who are not catholics.

God sends his son into the world to save us. Christ then sends the Apostles out to bring us to Christ, The apostles go out and evangelise and conversions occur.

The New testament is the end, there is no more follow up testament, therefor it is absolutely ENCUMBENT upon God to ensure that when the new testament starts, he provide guaranteed guidance from the beginning to the end, when Jesus returns.

This means that from the time of Christ forward and unto the end their must be an organisation that is visible that we can trust will have failfully carried the CORRECT teachings of God continuously.

The above is an absolute fact, no questions asked.

So now you have to identify that organistation that God has entrusted on a continual basis wihtout failure.

If reliable truthful teaching is lost by one group and changes to another group then you have to be able to accurately identify when God changes his mind and on what issues. If you cannot do that then you have simply chosen a path that is suitable to you to justify your own decision making process so that you do not have to CHANGE.

If you are gong to say that God has left one group and gone with another or others, then you and everybody else who believes the same is left in the same positionswhereby you all disagree on what is genuine christianity and what is not.
 
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sandusky:
What are you talking about?
At risk of sounding testy here, I suggest that you grapple with the significance of the “covenant blood” in Hebrews 10 in relation to Jesus’ words at the Last Supper: the only place recorded in all of his discourse where he uses the word “covenant.” In one of its many layers of significance, the Book of Revelation IS the Mass. For our own time, Scott Hahn has laid this all out in terms accessible to the average layman in his book, The Lamb’s Supper.

If you go to a Catholic Mass, you will see much of what John describes in Revelation: the Lamb that was slain on the altar of heaven.
 
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sandusky:
I left the church 40 years ago. I know what it teaches; I know all the changes since I left. The morph continues.
If you knew what the Church teaches, you could not possibly say that the Mass is not the re-presentation of the selfsame Sacrifice of Calvary.
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sandusky:
Unbelievable.
Quite. *Credo quia incredibile. *Since you were Catholic, I will not patronize you by translating that.

Lord, increase our faith.
 
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sandusky:
Oh yes, the “God is outside the constraints of time” argument. Wake up man; it is logically impossible for the mass to be the same sacrifice as that of Calvary. Ask Philthy, he loves logic.

The trinity is clearly stated in the scripture, and the mass is nowhere mentioned, and the Lord’s Supper is not called a sacrifice.

And again,** I do not think** that the Church teaches the mass as the same sacrifice, but a re-presentation of that sacrifice.
It is the same Sacrifice. “Re-presentation” is a clumsy English way of trying to say that. It might better be thought of as our entering through the veil of time into the eternity where that Sacrifice is forever presented to the Father.

I bolded those four words in your post because they seem to describe your approach to this whole mystery. You are not “thinking,” rather you are “reacting” out of some anger towards whomever hurt you in the Church, and that wound has never healed.
 
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