John 6 - Good Works

[Singinbeauty]

So I ran across this in a daily email I get and it struck me as interesting. See below:
John 6:28-30:

28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?

They asked point blank what works do we need to do for God as He requires and all Jesus says is to believe in Christ! That’s it. That’s all. Not - obey the commandments or make sure you are clean as snow the day you die. BUT BELIEVE in CHRIST.

What say you?

 

[1ke]

What say you?

If the bible were two verses long, they would have a point.

But, it’s not so they don’t.

 

[water]

A related question -

Can one cast out demons in Jesus name without believing in Him?

Not a trick question.

 

[Singinbeauty]

If the bible were two verses long, they would have a point.

But, it’s not so they don’t.

Who is ‘they’?

Jesus said it… Do you discount what He says?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Good one, 1ke.

And here is a few more than 2 verses…

Proverbs 14:23 - Work and you will earn a living; if you sit around talking you will be poor.
Proverbs 21:3 - Do what is right and fair; that pleases the Lord more than bringing him sacrifices.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 - Have reverence for God, and obey his commands, because this is all that man was created for.

Matthew 7:12 - “Do for others what you want them to do for you…”
Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who calls me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do…”
Matthew 22:37-39 - Jesus answered, " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and the most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as you love yourself…’ "

Luke 6:37-38 - “Do not judge others, and God will not judge you; do not condemn others, and God will not condemn you; forgive others, and God will forgive you. Give to others, and God will give to you. Indeed, you will receive a full measure, a generous helping, poured into your hands - all that you can hold. The measure you use for others is the one that God will use for you.”

John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God’s punishment.

Romans 2:6 - For God will reward every person according to what he has done.
Romans 13:9-10 - The commandments, “Do no commit adultery; do not commit murder; do not steal; do not desire what belongs to someone else” - all these, and any others besides, are summed up in the one command, “Love your neighbour as you love yourself.” If you love someone you will never do him wrong; to love then, is to obey the whole Law.

1 Corinthians 3:8 - … God will reward each one according to the work he has done.
1 Corinthians 13:2 - … I may have faith needed to move mountains - but if I have no love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:13 - Meanwhile these three remain; faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love.

Galatians 6:9 - So let us not become tired of doing good; for if we do not give up, the time will come when we will reap the harvest.

Ephesians 2:10 - God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.

Philippians 3:10-11 - All I want is to know Christ and to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death, in the hope that I myself will be raised from death to life.

James 1:22 - Do not deceive yourselves by just listening to his word; instead, put it into practice.
James 2:14,17 - My brothers, what good is it for someone to say that he has faith if his actions do not prove it? Can that faith save him? … if [faith] is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead.
James 2:19 - Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe - and tremble with fear.
James 2:20 - You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless?
James 2:24 - You see, then, that it is by his actions that a person is put right with God, and not by his faith alone.
1 John 2:3-4 - If we obey God’s commands, then we are sure that we know him. If someone says that he knows him, but does not obey his commands, such a person is a liar and there is no truth in him.

3 John 11 - … Whoever does good belongs to God; …

Philippians 2:12 - Keep on working with fear and trembling to complete your salvation…

 

[Singinbeauty]

Good one, 1ke.

And here is a few more than 2 verses…

Proverbs 14:23 - Work and you will earn a living; if you sit around talking you will be poor.
Proverbs 21:3 - Do what is right and fair; that pleases the Lord more than bringing him sacrifices.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 - Have reverence for God, and obey his commands, because this is all that man was created for.

Matthew 7:12 - “Do for others what you want them to do for you…”
Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who calls me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do…”
Matthew 22:37-39 - Jesus answered, " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and the most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as you love yourself…’ "

Luke 6:37-38 - “Do not judge others, and God will not judge you; do not condemn others, and God will not condemn you; forgive others, and God will forgive you. Give to others, and God will give to you. Indeed, you will receive a full measure, a generous helping, poured into your hands - all that you can hold. The measure you use for others is the one that God will use for you.”

John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God’s punishment.

Romans 2:6 - For God will reward every person according to what he has done.
Romans 13:9-10 - The commandments, “Do no commit adultery; do not commit murder; do not steal; do not desire what belongs to someone else” - all these, and any others besides, are summed up in the one command, “Love your neighbour as you love yourself.” If you love someone you will never do him wrong; to love then, is to obey the whole Law.

1 Corinthians 3:8 - … God will reward each one according to the work he has done.
1 Corinthians 13:2 - … I may have faith needed to move mountains - but if I have no love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:13 - Meanwhile these three remain; faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love.

Galatians 6:9 - So let us not become tired of doing good; for if we do not give up, the time will come when we will reap the harvest.

Ephesians 2:10 - God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.

Philippians 3:10-11 - All I want is to know Christ and to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death, in the hope that I myself will be raised from death to life.

James 1:22 - Do not deceive yourselves by just listening to his word; instead, put it into practice.
James 2:14,17 - My brothers, what good is it for someone to say that he has faith if his actions do not prove it? Can that faith save him? … if [faith] is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead.
James 2:19 - Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe - and tremble with fear.
James 2:20 - You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless?
James 2:24 - You see, then, that it is by his actions that a person is put right with God, and not by his faith alone.
1 John 2:3-4 - If we obey God’s commands, then we are sure that we know him. If someone says that he knows him, but does not obey his commands, such a person is a liar and there is no truth in him.

3 John 11 - … Whoever does good belongs to God; …

Philippians 2:12 - Keep on working with fear and trembling to complete your salvation…

Do you realize that EVERY quote above is from someone OTHER than God (Christ)? Humans who put their view on what they THINK God wants and Christ plainly puts it out there… It made me think…

Christ plainly says time and time again… to be ‘saved’ is to believe in HIM and HIM only. There is nothing we can do to earn our way into eternity with Him. The thief on the cross next to Christ was able to be in paradise with HIM immediately. Because of his belief and proclimation in Christ. If it hinged on how he lived his life do you think that Christ would have made the statement He did?

But the point isn’t to stop because ‘works’ are useless… No, your Faith is shown by the way you live your life. If you love God with all your heart mind and soul as He commands (the 1st great commandment given by Christ) you will do great things in His name. If you give up you have no faith in Christ.

It just got me thinking about the whole ‘works’ debate. Kind of negates anything when Christ plainly says that the only works necessary is to believe in the one that God has sent.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Do you realize that EVERY quote above is from someone OTHER than God (Christ)? Humans who put their view on what they THINK God wants and Christ plainly puts it out there… It made me think…

Two points…

1. Firstly, that’s not true. The quotes from the gospels are from Christ.
2. Secondly, are you implying that the authors of the Scriptures have a wrong interpretation of what Christ said, and that you have the right interpretation? I hope not. Because that would make you arrogant.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Two points…

1. Firstly, that’s not true. The quotes from the gospels are from Christ.

I stand corrected. I apologize. I didn’t see those, guess the night and my dyslexia is kicking in!

But, that said… Maybe there is a breakdown in what I believe works to be and what catholics believe them to be. To me, the ‘works’ quoted above in the gospel verses are not works but guidelines for us on how to live our life. Though I don’t believe that Christ was saying that our eternal lives are built off these. If you love Christ this will come almost naturally in the effort to please Him. Not with your salvation hinged on it because that would cheapen it but to tell Him ‘I love you so much my Lord that I can’t help but follow your word’. But you did quote an interesting verse for your argument…

John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God’s punishment.

Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life. Christ says to believe in Him, if we disobey this then we will remain under God’s punishment…

1. Secondly, are you implying that the authors of the Scriptures have a wrong interpretation of what Christ said, and that you have the right interpretation? I hope not. Because that would make you arrogant.

I have been called worse…

BUT, that isn’t what I said. I think that humans can interject things that aren’t there because they want to please God so much. Christ said it plainly. The only work for God is to believe in Christ. I don’t see how much plainer it can get from Christ’s own mouth…

 

[Pax]

Please note that in the quote you posted that Jesus says that faith is a work. There are a few other places in the NT that make the same point. Now, please keep in mind what it means to “believe” in Jesus. Belief in Jewish culture also means to obey. In fact the word for belief and obedience are closely related.

If you read every word spoken by Jesus and believe it, you will then have the full belief in Christ. Read all of what Jesus has to say and you will then understand the work of faith to which he refers. Jesus requires many things of us. Simply read everything he says and you will then know that the non-Catholic teaching of salvation by faith alone is false.

I hope this helps.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Please note that in the quote you posted that Jesus says that faith is a work.

That’s right.

As well, in Matthew 19:16-19 Jesus is asked what we must do to inherit eternal life and He replies the commandments and love your neighbor. These are works that we are to do.

And of course the part of John 6 quoted leads into Christ’s discourse that “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man…you have no life”…

So one must consider all of what He said. What value is there in absolutizing one part of His message and discounting the other, when instead they go together.

 

[geezerbob]

To me, the ‘works’ quoted above in the gospel verses are not works but guidelines for us on how to live our life. Though I don’t believe that Christ was saying that our eternal lives are built off these.

I think that humans can interject things that aren’t there because they want to please God so much. Christ said it plainly. The only work for God is to believe in Christ. I don’t see how much plainer it can get from Christ’s own mouth…

If you read Mt. 25: 31-46, you will see that Christ Himself ties our works to our eternal destination. He even tells us what those works are and what the reward or punishment for doing or failing to do them will be. To quote you, I don’t see how much plainer it can get from Christ’s own mouth.

 

[1ke]

Who is ‘they’?

Jesus said it… Do you discount what He says?

I misread your orginal post thinking “they” were people who had told this idea to you. I see now, it is your idea.

So, let me rephrase.

If the bible were only two verses long, you would have a point. But, it’s not so you don’t.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I misread your orginal post thinking “they” were people who had told this idea to you. I see now, it is your idea.

So, let me rephrase.

If the bible were only two verses long, you would have a point. But, it’s not so you don’t.

It is not my ‘idea’ as if I am totally going with this and about to start my own church… I know how most catholics think about protestants. It’s just something that struck me. So I brought it up… No need to get rude.

 

[1ke]

It is not my ‘idea’ as if I am totally going with this and about to start my own church… I know how most catholics think about protestants. It’s just something that struck me. So I brought it up… No need to get rude.

The Bible in its entirity is the inspired Word of God. Jesus taught for three years, not five minutes, and not until after his Resurrection did he lead the Apostles into “all truth” and send his Holy Spirit. The Apostles were given the authority to teach in Christ’s name and they did so.

To take two verses from the bible in isolation and attempt to prove an entire theological position from them-- while simultaneously ignoring a host of other verses-- is a flawed method with flawed results.

So, when you ask “what say you” I say: you are mistaken.

 

[RobNY]

They asked point blank what works do we need to do for God as He requires and all Jesus says is to believe in Christ! That’s it. That’s all. Not - obey the commandments or make sure you are clean as snow the day you die. BUT BELIEVE in CHRIST

In the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 19, verses 16 and 17.

Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

To enter into eternal life we must, “keep the commandments.”

The Johannine tradition enjoys this train of thought.

How can we be sure we know God?

1 Jn 2:3

The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments.

And it further tells us that the one who claims to know God, but who doesn’t keep His commandments, “is a liar” and, “the truth is not in him” (1 Jn 2:4).

1 Jn 5:2-3

In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

How do we love God? We love Him by keeping the commandments.

The testimony of Scripture is clear. We must follow God’s commandments. Any other position is lawlessness. If anyone thinks that one doesn’t have to obey the commandments to enter into eternal life, they are sadly mistaken. Jesus Himself evaluates us at the Last Judgment based on how well we fulfilled the law of love which he gave us, though the works of mercy (see Matthew chapter 25).

This is why the Council of Trent in the Sixth Session affirmed that:

But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema,-that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do.

-Rob

 

[edward_george]

So I ran across this in a daily email I get and it struck me as interesting. See below:

They asked point blank what works do we need to do for God as He requires and all Jesus says is to believe in Christ! That’s it. That’s all. Not - obey the commandments or make sure you are clean as snow the day you die. BUT BELIEVE in CHRIST.

What say you?

I say that since the Apostles are the ones whom Christ, who is God, sent ([ἀπόστολος](http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=ἀποστέλλω&action=edit); apostolos, ancient Greek meaning “one sent forth”), shouldn’t we listen to the Apostles and, by extension their successors?

-ACEGC

 

[elvisman]

So I ran across this in a daily email I get and it struck me as interesting. See below:

They asked point blank what works do we need to do for God as He requires and all Jesus says is to believe in Christ! That’s it. That’s all. Not - obey the commandments or make sure you are clean as snow the day you die. BUT BELIEVE in CHRIST.

What say you?

Gee, what about Mark 10:17-22:
***As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” ***
***Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. ***
***You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’” ***
***He replied and said to him, “Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth.” ***
**Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, "You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." **
At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
Hmmmm . . . that sounds like more than “just believing”.

Also, Rev. 20-13:
The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
There is a danger when individuals take one or two passages from scripture and form doctrines. ALL verses of scripture must be taken into context.

 

[RobNY]

Gee, what about…

I was trying to make the same point with my last post. Oftentimes the consistent doctrine of Scripture is obscured by myopic views of Pauline justification, in my opinion. More or less, a certain supposedly Pauline theory of justification is taken, and used as the rule by which one interprets Scripture. (And in fact, was almost taken so far as to be a rule of determining canon, even, as seen by Luther’s brief flirtation with excluding the epistle of James.)

However, Scripture very easily shows a consistent view, when one isn’t trying to bend its teaching to a foreign theory (imputed righteous/faith only).

As you noted, in the Apocalypse Jesus often claims (you cited one instance, I believe there are three or more) that we will be judged according to our deeds. This squares with the Biblical doctrine of our Lord at the Last Judgment when he will judge us according as we performed what are called the corporal works of mercy, which involve doing good to the lowly in whom we see Christ’s face (Matthew 25). James also has no bones about the necessity of good works (James 2).

The problem is the Pauline opposition which is artificially set up. In my opinion, it makes more sense to work from Jesus to Paul, rather than vice versa, but the typical approach of Protestant exegesis is to take Paul’s words as primary, and to interpret Christ’s words by them.

But Paul is not such a hater of works either. In fact, Paul conforms to Jesus’ teaching, and not vice versa. As you showed above, Jesus claims He will judge us according to our works. In Apocalypse He says, “I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.” (Rev 22:12).

Paul teaches exactly this doctrine. In the epistle to the Romans he speaks of the God “who will repay everyone according to his works” (Rom 2:6).

In fact, he continues:

who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

And this is nothing more or less than what the Catholics profess-- a thoroughly Biblical-- and Pauline-- doctrine.

-Rob

 

[manvega]

Matt:19.16Now someone approached him and said, teacher, what good must i do to gain eternal life 17He answered him. Why do you ask me about the good . there is only One who is good. if you wish to enter into life keep the commandments

 

[mark_a]

Jesus says is to believe in Christ! That’s it. That’s all. Not - obey the commandments or make sure you are clean as snow the day you die. BUT BELIEVE in CHRIST.

What say you?

Believe in Christ? Believe that he existed? Believe the things he taught? What?

I hope that works for ya. Meanwhile, I’ll be trying a little harder than that.