John 6 - Good Works

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi again Singinbeauty,

I’ve been thinking more about your post, and thinking about Matthew 19:16-26 which is being posted above by Catholics.

But I think you’re both right. :twocents:

Believing in Christ is not enough. And good works is not enough.

So, it has to be both. One would certainly compliment the other.

I realise this may lead to a discussion: Which should we do first? Should we believe first? Or should we obey the commandments first?

We may as well also argue about which came first - the chicken or the egg?

 

[Singinbeauty]

Hi again Singinbeauty,

I’ve been thinking more about your post, and thinking about Matthew 19:16-26 which is being posted above by Catholics.

But I think you’re both right. :twocents:

Believing in Christ is not enough. And good works is not enough.

So, it has to be both. One would certainly compliment the other.

I realise this may lead to a discussion: Which should we do first? Should we believe first? Or should we obey the commandments first?

We may as well also argue about which came first - the chicken or the egg?

I think that with the Faith comes the Works. You can’t have Faith if works don’t exist because your love for God is evident by what you do… But I believe that after Grace through Christ’s awesome Sacrifice comes Faith and then our Fruit of that Faith.

 

[mark_a]

I think that with the Faith comes the Works. You can’t have Faith if works don’t exist because your love for God is evident by what you do… But I believe that after Grace through Christ’s awesome Sacrifice comes Faith and then our Fruit of that Faith.

So what’s your point?

The above works for me, but the op, on its own, taken as presented, is the opposite.

 

[Pax]

I think that with the Faith comes the Works. You can’t have Faith if works don’t exist because your love for God is evident by what you do… But I believe that after Grace through Christ’s awesome Sacrifice comes Faith and then our Fruit of that Faith.

Please consider looking carefully at Eph 2:8-10 as Paul’s bridge to
James 2:17-26.

No one is saved without faith but no one is saved by faith alone. Ephesians 2:8-10 says:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

Clearly, we are saved by grace through faith. God does all of this at the point of our initial justification and nothing we have done brought this about. Likewise, by God’s grace we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works. This is crucial. At the point of our justification we are by God’s grace created in Christ Jesus for good works. Not only that, but God prepared these works in advance of our justification that we should walk in them.

Verse 10 makes it obvious that the works we do in the state of justification are part of the purpose and package of justification because they are by God’s grace and they are done by us as a new creation in Christ. Since these were prepared in advance of our justification they are not simply the fruit of our faith. They are an inseparable part of saving faith.

This teaching is reinforced by everything scripture says about being a new creation and living in the Spirit. In Romans 8:29 we are told that God’s purpose is “to conform us to the image of his son.” This is only possible if we are lead by and living in the Spirit. We are saved by faith and works and not by faith alone. The Father saves us. The Father gives us the gift of faith. The works we do are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in hearts, minds, bodies, and souls. We are his workmanship and not our own. All of the glory goes to God.

I hope this helps.

 

[Singinbeauty]

So what’s your point?

The above works for me, but the op, on its own, taken as presented, is the opposite.

I don’t think so…

To me, works don’t affect salvation. It is your Faith that does this. Works are just the bi-product of a True Faith. By those Fruits you are known to be Christian. So in essence it is your True Faith that saves you. If you have True Faith you will do what is required of you because you know it is right. Truly, if you have no works then your Faith is not authentic. It is impossible to have a True Faith and not do what is right. Otherwise, the Faith is dead…

 

[Sabda]

So I ran across this in a daily email I get and it struck me as interesting. See below:

They asked point blank what works do we need to do for God as He requires and all Jesus says is to believe in Christ! That’s it. That’s all. Not - obey the commandments or make sure you are clean as snow the day you die. BUT BELIEVE in CHRIST.

What say you?

Ok, to truly understand this if you have to first know what it means to BELIEVE. What does it mean to BELIEVE?

Here is something to meditate on.

John 3:

36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever **disobeys **the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

Believe means to obey. The opposite of believe is not unbelief but disobedience.

Keep in mind that “even the demons believe and tremble.” However, the demons do NOT obey and therefore will not have eternal life in heaven. Those who do obey WILL have eternal life.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Believing on Jesus is just the beginning, a stepping off point. What happens after that is up to you and God. Some persevere on the journey, some don’t.

The salvation process is not just a one time event, but and event that spans one’s entire life.

Just as Bible is not a few cobbled verses, but an entire tome that gives the whole picture.

 

[elvisman]

I don’t think so…

To me, works don’t affect salvation. It is your Faith that does this. Works are just the bi-product of a True Faith. By those Fruits you are known to be Christian. So in essence it is your True Faith that saves you. If you have True Faith you will do what is required of you because you know it is right. Truly, if you have no works then your Faith is not authentic. It is impossible to have a True Faith and not do what is right. Otherwise, the Faith is dead…

Unfortunately, when speaking of Christianity, comments that begin with, “To me . . .” or “I think . . .” have led to the tragedy that was the Protestant Reformation. It was more of a Revolution than true reform.
Sadly, that is why there are literally tens of thousands of Protestant denominations - and growing daily. All because people tear themselves away from God’s Church because of their own opinions about what THEY think - instead of God intended.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Unfortunately, when speaking of Christianity, comments that begin with, “To me . . .” or “I think . . .” have led to the tragedy that was the Protestant Reformation. It was more of a Revolution than true reform.
Sadly, that is why there are literally tens of thousands of Protestant denominations - and growing daily. All because people tear themselves away from God’s Church because of their own opinions about what THEY think - instead of God intended.

What a great way to answer the OP! Or was this your passive way of attacking protestants (yawn)?

Instead of answering the OP or responding to what I said, you took two words out of my post and BAM smacked protestants across the virtual face with it…

I can ONLY say ‘to me’ because I don’t speak for others. I don’t speak for anyone but myself. I am not the only one who thinks the way I stated above but I can’t lie and say I know what everyone else believes. But of course you aren’t interested with what I have to say. Your anti-protestant blinded eyes only see what you want to see and you jump all over that… Whatever…

Come back when you have an intelligent answer to the OP or any of my other posts…

 

[Pax]

I don’t think so…

To me, works don’t affect salvation. It is your Faith that does this. Works are just the bi-product of a True Faith. By those Fruits you are known to be Christian. So in essence it is your True Faith that saves you. If you have True Faith you will do what is required of you because you know it is right. Truly, if you have no works then your Faith is not authentic. It is impossible to have a True Faith and not do what is right. Otherwise, the Faith is dead…

I’m curious as to how you would respond to my post #24. Likewise, I am curious how you would incorporate your above stated view with James 2:24-26 where the apostle says:

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. …For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

Please note that James says that we are justified by works. This is tied to Eph 2:10. He then goes on to say that the relationship of faith and works is like that of the body and spirit. Faith is the body and works are the spirit. Without the works the faith is dead just as the body is dead without the spirit.

This analogy and all of the other statements by James and many made by Paul differ from your position that Works are just the bi-product of a True Faith

 

[MarcoPolo]

To me, works don’t affect salvation. It is your Faith that does this. Works are just the bi-product of a True Faith. By those Fruits you are known to be Christian. So in essence it is your True Faith that saves you. If you have True Faith you will do what is required of you because you know it is right. Truly, if you have no works then your Faith is not authentic. It is impossible to have a True Faith and not do what is right. Otherwise, the Faith is dead…

I’ve heard this before…but at the end of the day, if you take works out of the equation…no salvation, right??

 

[JoeyWarren]

I’ve heard this before…but at the end of the day, if you take works out of the equation…no salvation, right??

hmmmmmmmmm

I’ve heard this before…but at the end of one’s life, if you take works out of the equation…eternal damnation, right?

 

[Singinbeauty]

I’m curious as to how you would respond to my post #24. Likewise, I am curious how you would incorporate your above stated view with James 2:24-26 where the apostle says:

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. …For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

Please note that James says that we are justified by works. This is tied to Eph 2:10. He then goes on to say that the relationship of faith and works is like that of the body and spirit. Faith is the body and works are the spirit. Without the works the faith is dead just as the body is dead without the spirit.

This analogy and all of the other statements by James and many made by Paul differ from your position that Works are just the bi-product of a True Faith

Actually, the verse provided is quite along the same route as I was going. A Faith without works IS dead, didn’t I say this above? It shows that that Faith is not a faith at all. To use the analogy of body and spirit, if you don’t have the spirit you don’t breathe. If you don’t have the Faith then you won’t do the works required of you. I think we are along the same lines just coming at it from different angles.

 

[Singinbeauty]

hmmmmmmmmm

I’ve heard this before…but at the end of one’s life, if you take works out of the equation…eternal damnation, right?

Not necessarily. Take the theif on the cross next to Christ. His Faith is what got him to paradise not his works because as we know, he had to do something BAD to get up there next to Christ and yet at His admission of who Christ was he was told that he would be in paradise with Christ THAT DAY. What works did he do?

What about deathbed confessions?

 

[Texan_in_DC]

So I ran across this in a daily email I get and it struck me as interesting. See below:

They asked point blank what works do we need to do for God as He requires and all Jesus says is to believe in Christ! That’s it. That’s all. Not - obey the commandments or make sure you are clean as snow the day you die. BUT BELIEVE in CHRIST.

What say you?

The bible says a lot of things and I imagine that the one asking Jesus this question had a lack of belief on his part, its always important to study the context of the message.

What say I? I believe that Jesus understood exactly what he was saying and why he said. And the belief in Jesus Christ is very very important.

 

[elvisman]

What a great way to answer the OP! Or was this your passive way of attacking protestants (yawn)?

Instead of answering the OP or responding to what I said, you took two words out of my post and BAM smacked protestants across the virtual face with it…

I can ONLY say ‘to me’ because I don’t speak for others. I don’t speak for anyone but myself. I am not the only one who thinks the way I stated above but I can’t lie and say I know what everyone else believes. But of course you aren’t interested with what I have to say. Your anti-protestant blinded eyes only see what you want to see and you jump all over that… Whatever…

Come back when you have an intelligent answer to the OP or any of my other posts…

**I wasn’t attacking anyone - just an observation. **
You proved my point by saying that you don’t speak for others. The 30,000 or so Protestant denominations out there don’t speak for each other either.
As for your hyper-sensitive reaction and acrimonious response - lighten up.
The very nature of your OP was provocative and meant to rile up angry Catholic responses.
I’m not “anti-protestant” - I’m pro-Catholic because this is the Church established by our Lord.
**As for your angry comment about my post being less-than-intelligent - I will try to answer your posts more intelligently when I read an intelligent one from you. **
I haven’t yet . . .

 

[JoeyWarren]

Not necessarily. Take the theif on the cross next to Christ. His Faith is what got him to paradise not his works because as we know, he had to do something BAD to get up there next to Christ and yet at His admission of who Christ was he was told that he would be in paradise with Christ THAT DAY. What works did he do?

What about deathbed confessions?

There are exceptions. His faith came right before death, so the requirement of works does not apply, but the life long engrained atttitude and mentality that resulted in his current situation will have to be purged before entering heaven. Same applies to deathbed conversions.

THAT DAY is revelant to the space-time continium of the Heavenly realm. That day may last a thousand years…

 

[MarcoPolo]

hmmmmmmmmm

I’ve heard this before…but at the end of one’s life, if you take works out of the equation…eternal damnation, right?

Are you just stating what I said in a different way? I don’t quite follow. But yes, the point is if you have no works your faith is dead. Barring some other exception of ignorance or such, yes, a person with no works will likely be damned!

 

[JoeyWarren]

Are you just stating what I said in a different way? I don’t quite follow. But yes, the point is if you have no works your faith is dead. Barring some other exception of ignorance or such, yes, a person with no works will likely be damned!

Yes. And I was taking what you said one step further…

 

[Singinbeauty]

I wasn’t attacking anyone - just an observation.
You proved my point by saying that you don’t speak for others. The 30,000 or so Protestant denominations out there don’t speak for each other either.
As for your hyper-sensitive reaction and acrimonious response - lighten up.
The very nature of your OP was provocative and meant to rile up angry Catholic responses.
I’m not “anti-protestant” - I’m pro-Catholic because this is the Church established by our Lord.
**As for your angry comment about my post being less-than-intelligent - I will try to answer your posts more **intelligently when I read an intelligent one from you.
I haven’t yet . . .

Please stay on topic…