Z
Zosan
Guest
This is true for the ignorant, but what about our Catholic brothers and sisters?
- Status
Z
Zosan
Guest
I agree. Only God knows the heart of man.
S
steve-b
Guest
Ah, I should have been clearer.
The statement I responded to was
Our separated brethren do not partake in the Eucharist, so John 6 tells us they have no life in them. Yet I spent 38 years with them and I can attest they are full of life! Impossible for me to reconcile these two issues
my response to that (in particular, the underlined text) is that God doesn’t judge others through our eyes. IOW in that case, “full of life” on human terms means nothing if it goes against what Our Lord commanded us to do and all those who don’t do that, are in the same boat. Therefore, no human can claim to be full of life for themselves or others, if it goes against what Our Lord commanded (taking the Eucharist) in order to have life in them (in Our Lord’s understanding)
Last edited:
Z
Zosan
Guest
I agree “my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts” so indeed He does not judge through our eyes. My statement “full of life” is used to explain their enthusiasm when it comes to their faith in Jesus Christ.
I see conversation about our faith has to be viewed on two levels. The human level and the spiritual level. I continue to struggle with understanding “you have no life in you” when it comes to the Eucharist. I realize He is not speaking about physical life, but spiritual life, but does He mean those who do not partake in the Eucharist are dead spiritually?
I see conversation about our faith has to be viewed on two levels. The human level and the spiritual level. I continue to struggle with understanding “you have no life in you” when it comes to the Eucharist. I realize He is not speaking about physical life, but spiritual life, but does He mean those who do not partake in the Eucharist are dead spiritually?
W
Wannano
Guest
You stated above that you have a more balanced view of Christianity now than ever before. I perceive that you know the answer to your question is “no” but the expectation of some Catholic individuals who are not in tune with the current Catholic teaching is confusing. Some Catholics seem to spiritually thrive on casting doubt on the spiritual life of “Prots.” It is time for Catholics to realize that non-Catholic Christians are not the enemy.
Last edited:
S
steve-b
Guest
Re: the part in Jn 6 that addresses that.
" 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper′na-um."
I take Jesus at His word. I don’t want to be in front of Him someday, knowing this, and have Him say to me, what part of what I said did you not understand … pertaining the Eucharist, and in extension, also remaining in a state of grace.
Note that there were His own “disciples” who left Him over this. And also notice, Jesus didn’t go after THEM. He let them go.
“60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?[e] 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe,”
66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?”
Last edited:
Z
Zosan
Guest
I take Jesus at his word as well. This is why I have a problem with those that say “leave them to the grace of God” forgetting that we, as Catholics, are to go and make disciples of all nations. Recently I heard someone say “most Catholics live their whole lives without bringing a single soul to Christ.”
I have been used to bring a few folks to Christ through RCIA since my return to the Church in 2000. I See everyone I meet to be a potential RCIA candidate.
I have been used to bring a few folks to Christ through RCIA since my return to the Church in 2000. I See everyone I meet to be a potential RCIA candidate.
Z
Zosan
Guest
I’m sure you realize that before Vatican II the Church held the belief that there is no salvation outside of the Church. Since Vatican II recognized those Christians outside of the Church are separated brethren. Even so they are prohibited from receiving the Eucharist.
I agree. We should not view non-Catholic Christians as the enemy. Yet we should not leave them to their ignorance either. A lot of RCIA candidates are Protestant. Conversions occur every year and will continue as long as the Church exist. Protestants seeking the Church are usually influenced by Catholics who have accepted the call of Vatican II for the New Evangelization.
I agree. We should not view non-Catholic Christians as the enemy. Yet we should not leave them to their ignorance either. A lot of RCIA candidates are Protestant. Conversions occur every year and will continue as long as the Church exist. Protestants seeking the Church are usually influenced by Catholics who have accepted the call of Vatican II for the New Evangelization.
W
Wannano
Guest
It actually is my understanding (and maybe I am wrong) that the Church still claims there is no salvation outside of the CC and that anyone not in communion with Rome that receives salvation does so as an extension of the Catholic Church via a valid baptism.
Z
Zosan
Guest
Finally I returned to the Catechism for some help with my original question. Here is what I found:
817 “In fact, in this one and only Church of God from the very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostles strongly censures as damnable…”
818 “However, one cannot be charge with the sin of separation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…”
This is just a snipped so the entire portion should be read to get the whole story. Not sure if CA will allow me to quote the entire text,
817 “In fact, in this one and only Church of God from the very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostles strongly censures as damnable…”
818 “However, one cannot be charge with the sin of separation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…”
This is just a snipped so the entire portion should be read to get the whole story. Not sure if CA will allow me to quote the entire text,
S
steve-b
Guest
M
MT1926
Guest
Not really a teaching of the Church. We believe that they receive salvation as an extension of Jesus free gift of grace.
The Catholic Church teaches even those who have never heard the message of Jesus Christ or experienced His Baptism still have the possibility of salvation.
Hope this helps,
God Bless
S
steve-b
Guest
That is
UNTIL one becomes knowledgeable of the truth…THEN they become responsible for where they are. They then become knowledgeable of their separation
Ignorance isn’t considered a permanent get outta jail free card.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
THAT’S why the Catholic Church spends so much time educating the masses.
Last edited:
S
steve-b
Guest
Yet "can" and "possibility", doesn’t mean will receive. Can and possibility, is actually not a very good prediction at all. If it was, then there would be no need to be Catholic or anything else for that matter… Just be whatever you are.Wannano:
Not really a teaching of the Church. We believe that they receive salvation as an extension of Jesus free gift of grace.
The Catholic Church teaches even those who have never heard the message of Jesus Christ or experienced His Baptism still have the possibility of salvation.
Hope this helps,
God Bless
Last edited:
Z
Zosan
Guest
Yes I understand. I was a protestant for 38 years before returning to the Church. God always brings good from the mistakes we make each and every day. The Priest, who was used to bring me back to the Church, would say “we are a church of sinners, run by sinners, for the benefit of sinners.” Of course he is speaking about the people and not the Church which is holy.
Z
Zosan
Guest
Salvation is a journey that is complete at the end of this physical life. The reality of our salvation becomes clear to us at the particular judgment. Until then we have the hope that sustains us throughout the journey.
Z
Zosan
Guest
True in deed. This is why The Coming Home Network exist for those pastors who discover the truth. It is not easy for a Protestant Pastor to make the change to Catholicism. They loose their only source of income. Ignorance is bliss as long as it remains ignorance. Once the light of truth exposes the ignorance then the person is accountable for how they proceed from this point.
Z
Zosan
Guest
I agree. I have worked more than a few A.C.T.S. retreats. One year we had 2 people sign up and the director planned to cancel the retreat if we could not bring in more candidates. I worked with the homeless at St. Vincent De Paul at the time and presented the team with 11 applications. For weeks they would not accept them, for various reasons, until a graduate of A.C.T.S agreed to fund them all. Then when they showed up at R.C.I.A., some intoxicated, the Priest directed me to conduct R.C.I.A. separately from the group. The retreat master told me at the conclusion of the retreat that it was the best one yet.
S
steve-b
Guest
S
steve-b
Guest
True. Up to that point while we are still on this side of eternity, we can change our trajectory
Last edited:
- Status