John 6 questions

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Hello all! I am new to the forums, and I’ve signed up because as a protestant struggling with converting to Catholicism, I would like some help if it can be offered. I have been on the road to conversion for a couple of years now, but I can’t help fighting with myself over the Eucharist. I suppose it is due mostly to how I was raised (Southern Baptist). Recently, I attempted a strong inspection of John 6, and I’d like to list what I found. After reading it, can anybody offer some critiques on my thought process? It would be greatly appreciated.
*
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." John 6:51

So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:53 – 8

"Does this offend you? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” - John 6:61 – 2 *
  1. If it does offend them, how much more offended would they be if they were to see Him ascend to Heaven.
  2. Or, would they believe and therefore not be offended if they saw Him ascend to Heaven.
  3. This does not seem correct; for, the eye is flesh, and the flesh cannot believe even if it perceives.
  4. He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.” Luke 16:31
  5. It seems, then, that the unbelieving would remain offended even if they saw Christ ascend to the Heavenly places.
*“It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” - John 6:63 *
  1. The spirit brings life, but the flesh cannot. Jesus’ words are both spirit and life.
  2. We must presume, therefore, that it is the reception of Christ’s words that bring us ‘spirit and life’.
  3. If this is the case, life rests upon God’s drawing a man into belief:
  4. “No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.” John 6: 44 – 45
  5. It could be said that God draws man to belief by providing His Word; however, this would seem tautological in light of Christ’s statements.
  6. An unbeliever would be offended by Christ’s words (John 6:61), so how can the Word make him believe?
  7. How then, does God draw man into belief?
  8. By the pouring of His spirit?
  9. It seems that all men would believe if God only flooded them with His spirit.
  10. Truly, we know that not all men believe.
  11. I contend that, in order to believe, the ‘moved’ must receive the Spirit.
  12. Furthermore, it is apparent that the Spirit cannot be understood by the flesh, for the flesh will be ‘offended’ by the workings of God.
  13. Spirit, then, must be received in a spiritual fashion—that is, through faith.
  14. Christ’s “words that he has spoken’ which ‘are spirit and life’ must therefore be received in faith.
  15. The Spirit, then, enacts its presence in us, but we must acknowledge it in faith (which is a spiritual act).
  16. In answer to the question, “by the pouring of His spirit,” we answer “yes”.
  17. Likewise, in answer to “how does God draw man into belief,”, we say by the pouring out of His spirit, which brings about the faith to stand upon His Word.
  18. The question still remains, “why are Christ’s words spirit and life?”
  19. Christ himself is The Word (John 1:1 – 18). He spoke the world into creation. Therefore, it seems evident that His words are truth; that is, they are ‘spirit’. Also, they are ‘forever’.
  20. The passage can therefore be read as: “The words that I have spoken to you are both spirit in that they are truth and life in that they are eternal”.
  21. It is not the words that bring ‘spirit and life’, then, but the message they possess.
  22. Granted, Our Lord states that, “the spirit gives life; the flesh is useless.” What are we to make of this?
  23. One might argue that the “flesh profits nothing”, so it is pointless to consume Christ’s body and blood.
  24. However, it is the very sacrifice of Christ’s flesh on the cross which profits the entire world.
  25. Certainly, therefore, Christ’s flesh profits human-kind.
  26. It seems, thus, that flesh is to be taken as an act of man. It is that which is offended by God’s work. Flesh is incapable of faith (Luke 16:31).
  27. One might also object that it is the ‘spirit’ of the partaking of Christ’s flesh which gives life.
  28. Such a notion seems to deviate from the meaning for ‘spirit’ in these verses (truth in faith).
  29. Also, if we are to understand ‘flesh’ as that which is unbelieving, then spirit must be understood as that which believes.
  30. Ultimately, man cannot believe through his senses. Therefore, he must believe in spirit.
  31. What must he believe?
  32. Christ’s words—he is the bread of life; nobody comes to the Father except through Him.
 
I’m a little confused by your post. Sorry. What is the meaning of the numbers (1, 2, or 3) next to the lines below?
 
Penmark said:
Hello all! I am new to the forums, and I’ve signed up because as a protestant struggling with converting to Catholicism, I would like some help if it can be offered. I have been on the road to conversion for a couple of years now, but I can’t help fighting with myself over the Eucharist. I suppose it is due mostly to how I was raised (Southern Baptist). Recently, I attempted a strong inspection of John 6, and I’d like to list what I found. After reading it, can anybody offer some critiques on my thought process? It would be greatly appreciated.
*
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." John 6:51

So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:53 – 8

"Does this offend you? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” - John 6:61 – 2 *
  1. If it does offend them, how much more offended would they be if they were to see Him ascend to Heaven.
  2. Or, would they believe and therefore not be offended if they saw Him ascend to Heaven.
  3. This does not seem correct; for, the eye is flesh, and the flesh cannot believe even if it perceives.
  4. He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.” Luke 16:31
  5. It seems, then, that the unbelieving would remain offended even if they saw Christ ascend to the Heavenly places.
*“It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” - John 6:63 *
  1. The spirit brings life, but the flesh cannot. Jesus’ words are both spirit and life.
  2. We must presume, therefore, that it is the reception of Christ’s words that bring us ‘spirit and life’.
  3. If this is the case, life rests upon God’s drawing a man into belief:
  4. “No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.” John 6: 44 – 45
  5. It could be said that God draws man to belief by providing His Word; however, this would seem tautological in light of Christ’s statements.
  6. An unbeliever would be offended by Christ’s words (John 6:61), so how can the Word make him believe?
  7. How then, does God draw man into belief?
  8. By the pouring of His spirit?
  9. It seems that all men would believe if God only flooded them with His spirit.
  10. Truly, we know that not all men believe.
  11. I contend that, in order to believe, the ‘moved’ must receive the Spirit.
  12. Furthermore, it is apparent that the Spirit cannot be understood by the flesh, for the flesh will be ‘offended’ by the workings of God.
  13. Spirit, then, must be received in a spiritual fashion—that is, through faith.
  14. Christ’s “words that he has spoken’ which ‘are spirit and life’ must therefore be received in faith.
  15. The Spirit, then, enacts its presence in us, but we must acknowledge it in faith (which is a spiritual act).
  16. In answer to the question, “by the pouring of His spirit,” we answer “yes”.
  17. Likewise, in answer to “how does God draw man into belief,”, we say by the pouring out of His spirit, which brings about the faith to stand upon His Word.
  18. The question still remains, “why are Christ’s words spirit and life?”
  19. Christ himself is The Word (John 1:1 – 18). He spoke the world into creation. Therefore, it seems evident that His words are truth; that is, they are ‘spirit’. Also, they are ‘forever’.
  20. The passage can therefore be read as: “The words that I have spoken to you are both spirit in that they are truth and life in that they are eternal”.
  21. It is not the words that bring ‘spirit and life’, then, but the message they possess.
  22. Granted, Our Lord states that, “the spirit gives life; the flesh is useless.” What are we to make of this?
  23. One might argue that the “flesh profits nothing”, so it is pointless to consume Christ’s body and blood.
  24. However, it is the very sacrifice of Christ’s flesh on the cross which profits the entire world.
  25. Certainly, therefore, Christ’s flesh profits human-kind.
  26. It seems, thus, that flesh is to be taken as an act of man. It is that which is offended by God’s work. Flesh is incapable of faith (Luke 16:31).
  27. One might also object that it is the ‘spirit’ of the partaking of Christ’s flesh which gives life.
  28. Such a notion seems to deviate from the meaning for ‘spirit’ in these verses (truth in faith).
  29. Also, if we are to understand ‘flesh’ as that which is unbelieving, then spirit must be understood as that which believes.
  30. Ultimately, man cannot believe through his senses. Therefore, he must believe in spirit.
  31. What must he believe?
  32. Christ’s words—he is the bread of life; nobody comes to the Father except through Him.
Click to expand...
I suggest you breakdown your post into manageable questions.
 
Penmark,

One thing about the Eucharistic discourse in John that has always been instructive for me as far as Christ’s insistence that what he was saying was to be taken literally, is the occurrence with the 70 or so disciples who “left” him.

Recall how Jesus spoke about changing the bread and wine into his body and blood and how it was necessary that man partake of them? What did the “large group” of disciples say in response? Basically, that Jesus was crazy - he had lost his mind. How does he expect us to eat his flesh and drink his blood? If this is what he really means, then we are leaving.

And so they left . . .

Now if Jesus did NOT mean what he had just said, LITERALLY, don’t you think it would have been a good time to tell that large group of departing disciples, just as they were about to leave, words, to the effect: “Hey, guys - I don’t mean you have to LITERALLY eat my flesh and drink my blood - I only mean what I just said in a figurative way”.

If he would have said THAT, they would have remained with him. But did he do anything to prevent them from leaving? No - on the contrary. He repeated what he had said, emphasized that he meant what he said, and then turned to the 12 and asked them if they intended on leaving as well.

St. Peter gives one of the most beautiful statements of all: “To whom shall we go?”

Now THAT is a pretty strong indication that Jesus meant what he said 🙂
 
My two cents…

When Jesus spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, the words he spoke were spirit and life, that is, they were about a life-giving, spiritual truth which is spiritually discerned through faith by those who possess the Spirit of God but which appears only folly to the unspiritual man of the flesh. (See 1 Cor 2:12-14) Specifically, Jesus was speaking of sacramentally eating his flesh and drinking his blood under the appearance of bread and wine in the Eucharist. The unspiritual man of the flesh sees the Eucharist merely as common bread and wine but those spiritual men who possess the Spirit of God look beyond outward “fleshy” appearances and see through faith the life-giving, spiritual truth that, under the appearance of common bread and wine, the Eucharist is really “the body and blood of Christ” (1 Cor 11:27; see also 1 Cor 10:16).

The words of Jesus in John 6:63 apply to the other Sacraments as well. For instance, the unspiritual man of the flesh sees Baptism merely as a bodily washing with water but those spiritual men who possess the Spirit of God look beyond this outward “fleshy” appearance and see through faith the life-giving spiritual truth that, along with a bodily washing with water, Baptism is “the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5), in which a person is “cleansed from his old sins” (2 Pet 1:9) and “receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).
 
Attempting to simplify the discussion - and hoping I’m not changing the OP’s meaning:
Penmark said:
Hello all! I am new to the forums, and I’ve signed up because as a protestant struggling with converting to Catholicism, I would like some help if it can be offered. I have been on the road to conversion for a couple of years now, but I can’t help fighting with myself over the Eucharist. I suppose it is due mostly to how I was raised (Southern Baptist). Recently, I attempted a strong inspection of John 6, and I’d like to list what I found. After reading it, can anybody offer some critiques on my thought process? It would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...
Overall, it seems that you are still struggling with the truth of the Eucharist, based on the usual Evangelical non-sacramental reading of this very sacramental passage. I expect many of us who came out of an Evangelical background have had similar (if somewhat less articulated) struggles.
*“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." John 6:51
Click to expand...
So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:53 – 8
Click to expand...
"Does this offend you? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” - John 6:61 – 2 *
Click to expand...
  1. If it does offend them, how much more offended would they be if they were to see Him ascend to Heaven.
  2. Or, would they believe and therefore not be offended if they saw Him ascend to Heaven.
  3. This does not seem correct; for, the eye is flesh, and the flesh cannot believe even if it perceives.
  4. He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.” Luke 16:31
  5. It seems, then, that the unbelieving would remain offended even if they saw Christ ascend to the Heavenly places.
Click to expand...
Or, that they will find the Ascension even more difficult to comprehend than the Eucharist (because both depend on the Incarnation, which is beyond our comprehension).

I’ll try to look at another piece later, I’m on my way out the door.
 
Jesus predicts His own ascension. Jewish listener’s may recall the assumption of Enoch (Gen 5:24), Elijah (2 Kg 2:11). They also may recall the “Son of Man” from Dan 7.

It was the subject he was speaking of that are Spirit and life, his very own body and blood.

Many then and still today believe Christ’s word’s until they get to this “hard saying”, we need to be open to God’s grace for accepting that way we may not understand. If we are open to God’s grace he will draw us in!

The Lord’s body and blood nourish our eternal souls(Spirit, life) not the flesh of our mortal bodies. Luke 23:39 “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have." While the Lord’s body and blood may give nourishment to the physical body, this would be to serve God, not the “Flesh”.

Jesus didn’t say his body profits nothing. His body was tortured and nailed to a cross. His bodily death defeated death. 1Cor 12:54 …“Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?”

His body gives life to our souls. John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Our flesh profits nothing without Christ. However, with Christ abiding in us and us in him through the Eucharist we able to walk according to the Spirit, not the flesh.

Roman 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!”

All the Sacraments enable us to persevere to remain in Spirit, not in the flesh, which is “hostile to God”.
 
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