John 6

[SpiritualSon]

gusano:

Hi Harry,
Nice little package you have reasoned for yourself there
does it work?..
I mean, does your reasonong bring about the FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SIN ?

I don’t mean to be a "smarty pants"but as I read your post I was impressed by your use of the word “means”
or “stands for”

as I understand the word; (“means” ) …as in translation,
another way if thinking, an opinion, a concept, a substitute…

Have you actually DRANK THE BLOOD IF CHRIST?
have you indeed EATEN HIS FLESH?
I mean , taking it in your mouth, tasting it, embracing it with your lips, tongue, and palate and welcoming Him as He enters down in your belly and into your inner-most being?

I am not talking about “reading the scripture” that is good, but a lesser good.

I also notice that Jesus did not use the word;“means” at all in His discourse of The Eucharist.
he used the word;“IS”

but we could easily slip downward and quote those famous words;“Depends on your definition of what “is” IS.”

it has to be more than a meaning in the mind.
With our whole heart,
with our whole soul,
with our whole mind, and
with our whole strength.

I prefer 1 John 5:6,7 simple summary;
"Jesus Christ it is who came through water and blood-
not in water only, but in water and in blood.
It is The Spirit who testifies to this,and The Spirit is Truth .

Thus there are three that testify,The Spirit, the water and the blood-
and these three are of one accord."

The water of BAPTISM…(with belief)
The Blood of Christ at Eucharist…(with belief)
and The Spirit CONFIRMS us in our innermost being
for FAITH that leads to obedience.

if we were Angels instead of humans
we wouldn’t need Water and Blood, …
Spirit would be enough.
but since we are not…we NEED THE REAL BLOOD
for the forgiveness of our sins.
and we NEED HIS BODY to carry away our sins.

Heb. 10:26-29…"If we sin willfully after receiving the truth, there remains for us NO FURTHER SACRIFICE FOR SIN…(the sin of v;29…INSULTS THE SPIRIT ).

gusano

The host Priest give to a Catholic person at Holy Communion represents charity and faith from the Lord, but it doesn’t mean that the person who takes the host has charity and faith in them. A Catholic shouldn’t receive Holy Communion unless charity and faith from the Lord were in them.

Most people in the Catholic Church think their sins are gone for good after they go to confession. And they wonder why the same sin keeps pop up in their heads.

This is a bad habit: sinning,then after that go to confession and receive Holy Communion, and do the sameting over and over again.

This is profaning the Word, mixing good with evil. It is like a man who is married to loving wife, but also has a whore hidden in the basement of his house.He kisses his good loving wife good bye and goes down in the basement to his whore,kisses and saids I love you.

The house where the loving wife lives up stairs and the whore in the basement represents the man’s mind. The upper part of the mind is where his loving wife lives,which represents the will. The whore that lives in the basement represents the sensual part of himself.

Harry

 

[montanaman]

SpiritualSon,

That’s certainly the way it feels sometimes, but what do you propose? Don’t receive Communion until you’re guaranteed not to sin anymore? If you confess with no intention of resolving not to commit the sin, then certainly, you shouldn’t receive Communion. (But people in that mindset don’t really care much about the rules anyway…)

Confession and Communion is the medicine. I know. Without them I’d never be able to overcome my own demons.

 

[SpiritualSon]

montanaman:

SpiritualSon,

That’s certainly the way it feels sometimes, but what do you propose? Don’t receive Communion until you’re guaranteed not to sin anymore? If you confess with no intention of resolving not to commit the sin, then certainly, you shouldn’t receive Communion. (But people in that mindset don’t really care much about the rules anyway…)

Confession and Communion is the medicine. I know. Without them I’d never be able to overcome my own demons.

Your right, man is not perfect.But it doesn’t mean we can’t keep trying. When I was a Catholic I always knew in myself that after going to confession and receiving Holy Communion, evil shouldn’t have any part of me.If I fall I get myself up with the Lord’s help and start over again.

Harry

 

[Kinsman]

1 Cor does tell us to eat this bread and drink this cup but again, reading scripture in context, He tells us that the bread “IS” my body and the cup “IS” my blood. It is in fulfillment of the Passover.

Can you show me in Scripture where it says it’s the fulfillment of “Passover?” Jesus said in the upper room that this is the cup of the New Covenant in His blood. He said nothing about it fulfilling the Passover. Nor do the Epistles.

We know that the Jews were required to sacrifice a lamb. Jesus came, not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He IS the lamb. What did the Jews do? They had to eat the lamb. This was done regularly so they would not forget, to remember that they were brought into the promised land. What do we now do, we must eat the lamb regularly, Jesus, to remember what He has done for us.

If you go back and look at John 6 Jesus relates the eating and drinking of His flesh and blood to that of the ancients eating manna in the wilderness, not the Passover. As the “manna” they ate sustained their lives temporarily in the wilderness, the eating and drinking of His flesh and blood (used figuratively for believing in Him, Jn. 6:35-40) gives them everlasting life. Not even the Passover promised the Jews everlasting life. It was done in remembrance of God bringing them out of the bondage of Egypt. The passover lamb was fulfilled by Jesus Himself when He went to the cross. Not before He went to the cross.

St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, St. Justin Martyr - all wrote about the belief in the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. Read the early church fathers’ writings. With all due respect, the early church fathers’ writings are more credible to me than anything written today.

I think if you read them carefully they see a spiritual presence in the bread, they don’t exactly teach transubstatiation. But the writings of these men are not inspired Scripture. Their writings must be tested against what God had revealed in His inspired Word.

Again, I ask, if it is only symbolic or even meaning to consume His word, then why do satan worshippers steal the consecrated hosts and use them for their ceremonies?

I won’t even comment on this, for fear that it might seem to give it even the slightest hint of dignity.

 

[Britta]

Kinsman:

Can you show me in Scripture where it says it’s the fulfillment of “Passover?” Jesus said in the upper room that this is the cup of the New Covenant in His blood. He said nothing about it fulfilling the Passover. Nor do the Epistles.

First of all, it was during the passover that Jesus took the bread and wine and said “this IS my body” - “this IS my blood” Blood of the new covenant. Out with the old, in with the new. As I said before, he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

As to scripture: (just a few)

Ex. 12:8 and 46 refers to the need to eat the the lamb

1 Cor 5:7 “for our pascal lamb, Jesus, has been sacrificed.”

Malachi 1:11 - “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great…”

Jesus is the pure offering, the pascal lambb.

What does the Catholic Church do every hour of every day, all over the world…say Mass. Eucharist = pure offering.

I think if you read them carefully they see a spiritual presence in the bread, they don’t exactly teach transubstatiation. But the writings of these men are not inspired Scripture. Their writings must be tested against what God had revealed in His inspired Word.

ST. IGNATIUS’ LETTER TO THE ROMANS
REASON OF DESIRING TO DIE
“I have no delight in corruptible food, nor in the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.”

ST. IGNATIUS’ LETTER TO THE ROMANS
HAVE BUT ONE EUCHARIST
“Take ye heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth(1)] the unity of His blood;…”

He was taught by the Apostle John. His understanding of Jesus’ teaching would be quite reliable.

Many church fathers’ wrote about the teachings of Christ. There is so much more as I have them on disk and love to read them. They are rich and full of truth if you would like to read more.

I won’t even comment on this, for fear that it might seem to give it even the slightest hint of dignity.

Your choice. But have you even looked into it?

In closing, we can take the same information and see two completely different ideas of the truth. This confirms that fact that we need the church to go to for proper interpretation, which came first anyway. So which Church, you ask? The one Jesus started, the Catholic Church.

I could give you pages of scripture, quotes from early church fathers’, endless explanations to prove this is the Truth, but we would end up going around in circles. We’ve already started. Your responses reflect your strong position against this teaching.

“Does this teaching offend you?” John 6:61

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
– Thomas Aquinas

God Bless

 

[gusano]

SpiritualSon:

The host at Holy Communion
represents charity and faith from the Lord, but it doesn’t mean that the person who takes the host has charity and faith in them. A Catholic shouldn’t receive Holy Communion unless charity and faith from the Lord were in them.

"To him who HAS, more will be given. and he will have an abundance.
“To Him who HAS NOT, even what he does have shall be taken from him.”

Most people in the Catholic Church think their sins are gone for good after they go to confession. And they wonder why the same sin keeps pop up in their heads.

1. The Kingdom of God is at hand.
2. Repent
3. Believe the Gospel…(Mark 1:15)

if we forget or ignore any one of these (3)…we have a problem.

This is a bad habit: sinning,then after that go to confession and receive Holy Communion, and do the sameting over and over again.

You are right…
Do you believe that “bad habits” can sometimes be evil spirits that INHABIT a church goer"

This is profaning the Word, mixing good with evil. It is like a man who is married to loving wife, but also has a whore hidden in the basement of his house.He kisses his good loving wife good bye and goes down in the basement to his whore,kisses and saids I love you.

The house where the loving wife lives up stairs and the whore in the basement represents the man’s mind. The upper part of the mind is where his loving wife lives,which represents the will. The whore that lives in the basement represents the sensual part of himself.

Harry

I don’t believe we can profane the Word…
like we can not profane Christ…
rather we profane our own soul, and by our disloyalty we show Him we prefer adultry rather than He indwelling us.

“Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not,
nor dwells she in a body under the debt of sin.
For the Holy Spirit of discipline flees deceit…” (Wisdom 1:4,5)

Proverbs counsels us;
“With closest custody, guard your heart, for in it are the SOURCES of life.”

…"the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile a man…
evil thoughts, murders, adultries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

That is why The Priest asks us to "LIFT UP OUR HEART "…at the Altar, so we can do (obey) Rom. 12:1

if we don’t learn how to do this…where and how else can one be made HOLY?

gusano

 

[Kinsman]

Britta:

First of all, it was during the passover that Jesus took the bread and wine and said “this IS my body” - “this IS my blood” Blood of the new covenant. Out with the old, in with the new. As I said before, he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Have you forgotten? This thread is about John 6. I asked where Jesus makes reference to the Passover in context with what He was saying about eating His flesh and drinking His blood in John 6. His reference was to the “manna” the ancients ate in the wilderness, He never mentions the Passover. Nor should you. Don’t read into that chapter your own (or Rome’s) thoughts.

Yes, I know Jesus died on the day the Passover lambs were slaughtered. His death on the cross fulfills the Passover. And just as the Israelites celebrated the Passover every year to remember their deliverance from the bondage of Egypt, so Communion, this side of the cross, is for believers to remember the deliverance from their bondage to sin through Christ’s once for all sacrifice on their behalf. He’s our Passover Lamb. That’s why He said, “Do this in remembrance of Me.” Do what? Eat the bread and drink the cup of the New Covenant. It’s that simple. He instructed no one to turn anything into something that it is not. Nor did He give anyone such power. There was no need.

What does the Catholic Church do every hour of every day, all over the world…say Mass. Eucharist = pure offering.

Yet the Bible never speaks of the bread and wine in the terms of an “offering.” And every time you do it as an offering God’s Word testifies against you:

“…but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been
manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this
comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once *to bear the sins *of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him” (Heb. 9:26-28).

Britta, do you understand that according to God’s Word Christ’s sacrifice for sins was a one time offering? That there on the cross He bore ALL your sins, past, present and future (1 Pet. 2:24)? For this reason He uttered the words, “it is finished.” And for this reason all who come to Him by faith are given everlasting life (Jn. 6). The sin issue was dealt with at the cross of Christ once for all. No man goes to Hell because of sins, he goes because of unbelief. Have you put your trust in God’s revealed truth that Christ bore ALL your sins on the cross, a *finished *work on your behalf? This is the content of salvation faith. It is not the content of faith according to Roman Catholicism, but it is according to God’s Word. Will you put your trust in Him, and His Word alone?

In closing, we can take the same information and see two completely different ideas of the truth. This confirms that fact that we need the church to go to for proper interpretation, which came first anyway. So which Church, you ask? The one Jesus started, the Catholic Church.

No, it simply means that one may be right, one may be wrong. Or, both are wrong. But there’s only one right interpretation. Yours is filtered through Rome, mine is based on God’s Word alone. From the beginning man was to trust in God’s Word, not the words of any creature, angelic or human. You still have that choice. When one chooses to listen to God’s Word he chooses life.

 

[gusano]

SpiritualSon:

Your right, man is not perfect.But it doesn’t mean we can’t keep trying. When I was a Catholic I always knew in myself that after going to confession and receiving Holy Communion, evil shouldn’t have any part of me.If I fall I get myself up with the Lord’s help and start over again.

Harry

When I was a Catholic…
Does that mean you are not a Catholic now ?

I was taught that once you have been Baptized a Catholic,you are
branded by The Holy Spirit for all eternity.

…That Baptism + FAITH = forgiveness of our sin
and ETERNAL LIFE.

you didn’t toss that aside, did you ?

gusano

 

[Britta]

Kinsman:

Have you forgotten? This thread is about John 6. I asked where Jesus makes reference to the Passover in context with what He was saying about eating His flesh and drinking His blood in John 6. His reference was to the “manna” the ancients ate in the wilderness, He never mentions the Passover. Nor should you. Don’t read into that chapter your own (or Rome’s) thoughts.

Actually, your question was…

Can you show me in Scripture where it says it’s the fulfillment of “Passover?” Jesus said in the upper room that this is the cup of the New Covenant in His blood. He said nothing about it fulfilling the Passover. Nor do the Epistles.

You question referenced more than John 6 so I replied as such.

Besides, as I am sure you know, you cannot interpret one passage of scripture on its own. It must be read in context.

Britta, do you understand that according to God’s Word Christ’s sacrifice for sins was a one time

offering? That there on the cross He bore ALL your sins, past, present and future (1 Pet. 2:24)? For this reason He uttered the words, “it is finished.” And for this reason all who come to Him by faith are given everlasting life (Jn. 6).
Yes, it is once and for all. We are not slaughtering lambs anymore. He did it once and for all.

No, it simply means that one may be right, one may be wrong. Or, both are wrong. But there’s only one right interpretation. Yours is filtered through Rome, mine is based on God’s Word alone. From the beginning man was to trust in God’s Word, not the words of any creature, angelic or human. You still have that choice. When one chooses to listen to God’s Word he chooses life.

We are called to Trust in God’s Word, the Word made Flesh. Trust in Jesus.

Yes, there is only one right interpretation. So, let’s look at all the different interpretations. Afterall, they originated from somewhere. I am accepting Rome’s interpretation, and you are accepting your truth from someone too. Your belief is much older than your age. So whose interpretations are you believing?

I believe Rome, not because they said so. It is not as though I heard this teaching and just said, “oh…okay!” My position is not based on the “filtered” ideas of Rome. It took years to come to the Truth.

There is history (which I found from sources other than Catholic) and scripture (which I have read various translations) that brought me to believe it. I am a convert having gone to many different Churches and studied many different interpretations. The Catholic Church is the Truth.

We are going around in circles and we are clearly on opposing sides. Unfortunately, I am leaving for Europe in a few days and will have difficulty continuing this debate. Although I will have internet access, I cannot promise many responses.

Thanks for your honesty and (name removed by moderator)ut. It is nice to be able to discuss these differences.
God Bless

 

[Kinsman]

Britta:

We are going around in circles and we are clearly on opposing sides. Unfortunately, I am leaving for Europe in a few days and will have difficulty continuing this debate. Although I will have internet access, I cannot promise many responses.Thanks for your honesty and (name removed by moderator)ut. It is nice to be able to discuss these differences.God Bless

Have a good trip. I too will be busy for the next month or so, so I won’t be posting anywhere on this forum. I’m sure there are many who will be glad of that!!! Take care.
Kinsman

 

[hlgomez]

KINSMAN, et al,

The problem with you, brothers, is that you don’t bother to read paragraph by paragraph the answers posted by my fellow Catholics and understand them. The truth is, you are not open to explanation. You just jump into your own way of understanding Scriptures. You don’t even answer the explanation point by point. That’s why you are locked-up in your understanding and no matter how we explain Catholic teachings to you it just doesn’t make sense to you.

If you guys are really serious in knowing what the Catholic Church believes and teaches–don’t put your words in our mouth.

Pio

 

[SpiritualSon]

**Holy Communion contains everything to do with the church and heaven, both at the universal and at the particular level.

The Lord is in the man who lives by charity and faith. The Lord’s flesh is meant by His Divine Good,and in man is charity.The Lord blood is meant by His Divine Truth, which is man’s faith in the Lord. Good is of charity,and charity is of good.

Truth is of faith,and faith is of truth. Also faith is of the understanding,and the understanding is of faith.Charity is of the will,and the will is of charity.

The Lord’s flesh and blood, and man’s charity and faith from the Lord are related.For the Lord is charity and faith in man,and man is charity and faith in the Lord. When man is willing to repent and do good, it is charity.This is meant by eating His flesh,which means to live by. Drinking His blood is meant by believing in Him or having faith in Him.

Harry
**

 

[Desert_Dweller]

Sorry Spiritual Son, all I hear is more word play. It still stands to reason that:

1. Christ would have made his message clear so as not to lose disciples. They had been following him and witnessing miracles. If He just meant to believe, then why not just say it?
2. The Early Christian writers, (Ignatius, St. Justin Martyr. etc) all echoe what the Catholics on this forum have been saying. This was in fact the accepted teaching at that time. (around 110 150 AD) This was before the Bible as you know it was even compiled.

So, why would I listen to a 16th century interpretation when the Chuch still speaks with one voice from its inception?

 

[Britta]

Although I am leaving for vacation tomorrow, I did want to add something that was brought up earlier.

There was a question referencing John 6:49 where Jesus mentions the manna given from God to their ancestors, but they died. Upon reflection and talking with a friend, I would like to bring up how I see it actually validates the Catholic position.

Jesus said “I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

He said that God gave our ancestors the manna and they** ate it** but they died. Now God gives us the bread from heaven, Jesus, and we, like our ancestors, must eat it and live.

Thanks for listening. I can’t wait to read more when I get back.

 

[MariaG]

Although the one who needs to read this probably won’t get a chance, I just have to say this about the Eucharist:

Magic show? Not even close

Miracle of God? :yup: :yup: :yup:

My God is a God that created the world. Nothing is impossible for Him. I am truly sorry you put God in a box and call His miracles magic.
God Bless
Maria

 

[SpiritualSon]

---

“To eat of this bread” is to be conjoined to the Lord by love, for “to eat” signifies to be appropriated and to be conjoined, and love is spiritual conjunction. The same is signified by “eating in the kingdom of God,” in Luke: **
Blessed is he that eateth bread in the kingdom of God (Luke 14:15).

To drink the Lord’s blood is to have faith in Him.Faith is believing and understanding the Lord’s truth,which is the Word.The Word is Divine Truth.

Charity and faith is meant by the Lord’s flesh and blood. Taken the host at Holy Communion doesn’t make the person holy. Living by charity and faith from the Lord does make a person holy. The Lord is Holiness itself. Men and angels have their holiness from Him,and not from themselves.

Harry
**

 

[SteveG]

**SpiritualSon:**Let me first ask a very straightforward question. Why do you believe that the revelations of Emmanual Swedenborg are ‘true’? On what basis do you trust them?

SpiritualSon:

The host Priest give to a Catholic person at Holy Communion represents charity and faith

In Catholic thinking the host represents nothing. It IS the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ. This is the ancient faith passed down from hearers of the apostles and attested by the writing of the earlierst successors to the apostles. On what basis do you proclaim that the host represents charity and faith?

SpiritualSon:

from the Lord, but it doesn’t mean that the person who takes the host has charity and faith in them. A Catholic shouldn’t receive Holy Communion unless charity and faith from the Lord were in them.

How does one judge if one has enough charity and faith in them? Is there some minimum threshold or percentage we shoudl attain before recieving? We are all works in progress. As long as one is not aware of any mortal sin (I know you likely don’t buy this doctrine), one SHOULD receive communion as it will serve to fan the flames of whatever level of faith and charity are already present in one.

SpiritualSon:

Most people in the Catholic Church think their sins are gone for good after they go to confession. And they wonder why the same sin keeps pop up in their heads.

This is incorrect. Most Catholics don’t think their sins are ‘gone’. They ‘know’ that they are forgiven. They also realize that the effects of whatever they have done my indeed still be present. And if they wonder why the same sin keeps popping in to their heads, they shouldn’t. It’s called concupiscence and it is due to original sin. The proclivity of man in his fallen state to fall back into self centered behavior. It IS the battle we are here to fight. The battle to overcome that proclivity. This is well understood by the most moderately informed faithful Catholics. That you may not have been such when you rejected the faith, and that the above may have been your understandings does not make it so for other Catholics.

SpiritualSon:

This is a bad habit: sinning,then after that go to confession and receive Holy Communion, and do the sameting over and over again.

Repentance is not true repentance if one does not have the intention of not committing the sin again. But, if someone is truly struggling to overcome a sinful behavior, this is EXACTLY what they should do. In the Christian life we rise by falling, IF we endeavor to pick ourselves up again after each fall. Perfection is not attained in a day. Rather it is a hard fought struggle over our whole lives. The truly holy, but humble person will be the first to tell you that they have a long way to go.
…CONTINUED

 

[SteveG]

SpiritualSon:

This is profaning the Word, mixing good with evil. It is like a man who is married to loving wife, but also has a whore hidden in the basement of his house.He kisses his good loving wife good bye and goes down in the basement to his whore,kisses and saids I love you.

No, it is most definetely not like this. It’s rather like the small child who is learning to walk. At first they stumble, and often they fall. Through their practice and failure, they get a bit more sure. With each mistake they hopefully learn something new. As they grow in experience, they gain confidence in their abilities and their stride becomes more sure. But even then, they will ocasionally trip, slip or fall. One day they even hope to run. THIS is the experience that you described in the person who is still failing. It is our strivings to become what God intended us to be.

SpiritualSon:

The house where the loving wife lives up stairs and the whore in the basement represents the man’s mind. The upper part of the mind is where his loving wife lives,which represents the will. The whore that lives in the basement represents the sensual part of himself.

And here you begin to cross into gnosticism. You would separate man into two components. The spiritual and the material. But this is not the understanding of man in ancient Judaism or in any form of orthodox Christianity. Rather than the description you have laid out, man is an emodied soul. Soul and body are one, interrelated and intertwined to such an extent that their separation is ultimately impossible. It’s why both Judaism and Christianity have always believe in the bodily ressurection. We are incomplete without our bodies. Christ even shows this by raising his own and glorifying it and promising to do the same for us.