John 6

[spyderman]

Is there another example within scripture that’s similar to the bread of life discourse exodus? Meaning, is there another example when Jesus was asked to clarify his preaching due to confusion of the masses in which he highlighted what he was talking about yet masses of people left in disgust?

I typically (and successfully) use this as a means to represent Jesus’ intended position – suggesting that no place else in the NT was there room for interpretation after Jesus responded to a parable that seemed confusing to the masses and warranted question for clarification.

 

[simbagizmo]

Is there another example within scripture that’s similar to the bread of life discourse exodus? Meaning, is there another example when Jesus was asked to clarify his preaching due to confusion of the masses in which he highlighted what he was talking about yet masses of people left in disgust?

I typically (and successfully) use this as a means to represent Jesus’ intended position – suggesting that no place else in the NT was there room for interpretation after Jesus responded to a parable that seemed confusing to the masses and warranted question for clarification.

Most of Jesus’s preaching was confusing to the masses and his apostles also. This was intended.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

As for John 6, the people who left in disgust, were non-believers that did not understand the metaphor being used. Unlike the woman in John 4, who eventually understood the metaphor of water for believing, the people who left in John 6 never did get the metaphor. They took Jesus literally. Now Peter understood the metaphor, that it was Jesus’s words that have eternal life, not His body.

 

[spyderman]

Simbagizmo,

thanks for the response. My intent was not to get into the theology of what Jn 6 means; there are plenty of characters attributed to this elswhere in this forum.

I’m just looking for another example of when Jesus responds with essentially the same message when asked for clarification of something that seems confusing to those listening - other places in the bible where he’s asked to do so he typically translates the parable into something those listening can easily understand.

Thanks again - I’ll take a look at the instance in Jn 4 you suggested.

 

[Veritas41]

The only passage that comes to mind right off hand is in John 8:48-59,where Jesus claims divinity, and after the scoffing response of His listeners, says very clearly, “Before Abraham was born, I am!”

 

[simbagizmo]

Simbagizmo,

thanks for the response. My intent was not to get into the theology of what Jn 6 means; there are plenty of characters attributed to this elswhere in this forum.

I’m just looking for another example of when Jesus responds with essentially the same message when asked for clarification of something that seems confusing to those listening - other places in the bible where he’s asked to do so he typically translates the parable into something those listening can easily understand.

Thanks again - I’ll take a look at the instance in Jn 4 you suggested.

John 3 maybe another you are asking about. This is the “being reborn” message Jesus had with Nicademus.

 

[Cranch]

As for John 6, the people who left in disgust, were non-believers that did not understand the metaphor being used. Unlike the woman in John 4, who eventually understood the metaphor of water for believing, the people who left in John 6 never did get the metaphor. They took Jesus literally. Now Peter understood the metaphor, that it was Jesus’s words that have eternal life, not His body.

Are you saying that John 6:35-64 does not refer to the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ? If so, you are mistaken. The Catholic Church teaches in the Catechism:

**“Take this and eat it, all of you”: communion **
**1384 **The Lord addresses an invitation to us, urging us to receive him in the sacrament of the Eucharist: "Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."215

**The fruits of Holy Communion **
**1391 **Holy Communion augments our union with Christ. The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus. Indeed, the Lord said: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."223 Life in Christ has its foundation in the Eucharistic banquet: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."224

215 Jn 6:53.
223 Jn 6:56.
224 Jn 6:57.

 

[Cranch]

Simbagizmo,

thanks for the response. My intent was not to get into the theology of what Jn 6 means; there are plenty of characters attributed to this elswhere in this forum.

spyderman-
I don’t mean to hijack your thread. I just found Simbagizmo’s comment troubling. Sorry.

 

[Brendan]

. Now Peter understood the metaphor, that it was Jesus’s words that have eternal life, not His body.

Really? It seems, then, that Peter still got in wrong when he said this:

He himself **bore our sins in his body **on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

1 Peter 2:24

And I guess that would have to include Isaiah as well, whom Peter was paraphrasing.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 53:5

 

[tptram]

Most of Jesus’s preaching was confusing to the masses and his apostles also. This was intended.

Huh? Jesus intended to confuse us?
The Son of God’s confusing us?
The way, the truth, the life deliberately confusing us?

That is absurd!!!

As for John 6, the people who left in disgust, were non-believers that did not understand the metaphor being used. …
… Now Peter understood the metaphor, that it was Jesus’s words that have eternal life, not His body.

there is no metaphor. Jesus repeatedly saying “eat my Flesh”
“drink my Blood”

Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said.

There is no metaphor/symbolism in John 6

Tak

 

[simbagizmo]

Really? It seems, then, that Peter still got in wrong when he said this:

1 Peter 2:24

And I guess that would have to include Isaiah as well, whom Peter was paraphrasing.

Isaiah 53:5

No, Peter still got it right. It is true that by His wounds we are healed. But through Faith and Believing we are saved.

 

[simbagizmo]

Are you saying that John 6:35-64 does not refer to the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ? If so, you are mistaken. The Catholic Church teaches in the Catechism:

I am saying that John 6:35-64 refers to John 6:26-34. And this is in reference to John 6:1-25. And John 6 is the same type of metaphor found in John 4. In John 6, Jesus tried to explain the metaphor to his disciples that were leaving.

Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Here he is explaining the metaphor. It is the words that are life. Not His physical body and blood. And this is understood by Peter when he repeated this to Jesus.

Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 

[simbagizmo]

Huh? Jesus intended to confuse us?
The Son of God’s confusing us?
The way, the truth, the life deliberately confusing us?

That is absurd!!!

If you think so, but Jesus stated why he spoke in parables in Mathew 13.

there is no metaphor. Jesus repeatedly saying “eat my Flesh” “drink my Blood”

Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said.

There is no metaphor/symbolism in John 6

Tak

John is full of metaphors and symbolisms. In John 6

Joh 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus is telling the people to work for the food that gives eternal life, not for regular food. This is symbolism using food that give eternal life being the Spirit. Just like John 4

Joh 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

Here the people think Jesus is talking about literal food and what work they must do

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus states the work they must do to receive the food that gives eternal life is to believe in Him

Joh 6:30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
Joh 6:31 “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”

The people stated that God gave bread from heaven to Moses and their fathers to eat. They now wanted a sign that they should follow Jesus. Now here comes the symbolism Jesus uses to connect food, bread, and the Spirit that gives true life.

Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
Joh 6:33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”

Bread spoken by Jesus here is not literal bread, but the Spirit that gives life.

Joh 6:34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

The people here did not get the symbolism. They are still thinking about literal bread here. Please read the same response in John 4 with the woman about the well of living water.

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Jesus completes the symbolism from the bread to himself. He that comes will not hunger. He who believes will not thirst. It is Jesus, the Word that became flesh, that gives life.

Joh 6:36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Joh 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Jesus makes his declaration that He is the Son and those that believe in Him have eternal life. Not those that literally eat and drink Him, but those that believe in Him.

Joh 6:41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
Joh 6:42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.

The people still do not understand nor believe

 

[simbagizmo]

Continue …

Joh 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Joh 6:48 "I am the bread of life.
Joh 6:49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Joh 6:50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

Once again, Jesus states eternal life comes to one who believes. Keeping the symbolism of bread going. Eat of this bread is symbolism of believeing in Him.

Joh 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Jesus states again eating of this bread as symbolism of believing in Him. Then he changes gears to what He will do when he is crucified. He states he sill give his flesh for the life of the world. This is reference to His death on the cross.

Joh 6:52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

The people still did not understand the symbolism.

Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
Joh 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
Joh 6:56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
Joh 6:58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus repeats the symbolism again to the people.

Joh 6:59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
Joh 6:61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?

The people, including some disciples still do not get the symbolism of eating flesh and drinking blood to believing in Him.

Joh 6:62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Finally, Jesus unravels the symbolism. Jesus states that it is not the eating of flesh or drinking of blood that gives eternal life. But it is the Spirit that gives life, and the words Jesus is speaking is spirit. Not eating flesh and drinking blood, but believing in the words of Jesus.

Joh 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
Joh 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
Joh 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

The disciples still did not believe in Jesus and left.

Joh 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”

Jesus asks the apostles if they wish to leave Him also.

Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69 “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Simon reiterated the message of this chapter once again. He states that it is the words of Jesus that are eternal life, for they believe and come to know that Jesus is the Son of God.

This passage starts and ends with the same message. That it is belief in Jesus Christ that saves. Just as in John 4, Jesus uses a metaphor to teach the message of salvation.

 

[simbagizmo]

Simbagizmo,

thanks for the response. My intent was not to get into the theology of what Jn 6 means; there are plenty of characters attributed to this elswhere in this forum.

I’m just looking for another example of when Jesus responds with essentially the same message when asked for clarification of something that seems confusing to those listening - other places in the bible where he’s asked to do so he typically translates the parable into something those listening can easily understand.

Thanks again - I’ll take a look at the instance in Jn 4 you suggested.

Going through the chapter again, Jesus does actually explain the meaning of this message that is clear in John 6:63

 

[estesbob]

Most of Jesus’s preaching was confusing to the masses and his apostles also. This was intended.

As for John 6, the people who left in disgust, were non-believers that did not understand the metaphor being used. Unlike the woman in John 4, who eventually understood the metaphor of water for believing, the people who left in John 6 never did get the metaphor. They took Jesus literally. Now Peter understood the metaphor, that it was Jesus’s words that have eternal life, not His body.

There was no metaphor to understand-as Jesus himslef made crystal clear.

 

[estesbob]

Continue …

Once again, Jesus states eternal life comes to one who believes. Keeping the symbolism of bread going. Eat of this bread is symbolism of believeing in Him.

Jesus states again eating of this bread as symbolism of believing in Him. Then he changes gears to what He will do when he is crucified. He states he sill give his flesh for the life of the world. This is reference to His death on the cross.

The people still did not understand the symbolism.

Jesus repeats the symbolism again to the people.

The people, including some disciples still do not get the symbolism of eating flesh and drinking blood to believing in Him.

Finally, Jesus unravels the symbolism. Jesus states that it is not the eating of flesh or drinking of blood that gives eternal life. But it is the Spirit that gives life, and the words Jesus is speaking is spirit. Not eating flesh and drinking blood, but believing in the words of Jesus.

The disciples still did not believe in Jesus and left.

Jesus asks the apostles if they wish to leave Him also.

Simon reiterated the message of this chapter once again. He states that it is the words of Jesus that are eternal life, for they believe and come to know that Jesus is the Son of God.

This passage starts and ends with the same message. That it is belief in Jesus Christ that saves. Just as in John 4, Jesus uses a metaphor to teach the message of salvation.

There is no indication whatsoever that Jesus intnended this to be symbolic. In fact he made it very clear that he was NOT speaking symbolically and he lost disciples because of it. He makes it clear again saying "THIS IS MY BODY’ Not this is a symbol of my body.

The Apostles finally grasped what he was saying-as did all Christians for the first 1,500 of His Church’s existence. Yes Jesus saves but that does not lessen his admnition that we must Physically eat his Body and drink his Blood-somethng I am going to do again in about 4 hours.You have no idea what you are missng.

 

[tptram]

@ simbagizmo

by your statement, a premise

Most of Jesus’s preaching was confusing to the masses and his apostles also. This was intended.

the logic that followed
conluded in an absurdity

thus the statement/premise is invalid.

I do not think Jesus – Son of God – intended to confuse us.
That was your invalid statement.

Jesus used parables to teach.
Parables are stories to explain a fundamental truth.
It in itself serves to clarify, make the audience -“the unlearned”- understand His teaching.

You, sir, asserted that Jesus intended to confuse his audience.
That is unacceptable to a follower of Christ.

Tak

 

[Cranch]

 Quote:
                Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you **eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood**, you have no life in yourselves.

Joh 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
Joh 6:56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
Joh 6:58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
Jesus repeats the symbolism again to the people.
Quote:
Joh 6:59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
Joh 6:61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
The people, including some disciples still do not get the symbolism of eating flesh and drinking blood to believing in Him.
Quote:
Joh 6:62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Finally, Jesus unravels the symbolism. Jesus states that it is not the eating of flesh or drinking of blood that gives eternal life. But it is the Spirit that gives life, and the words Jesus is speaking is spirit. Not eating flesh and drinking blood, but believing in the words of Jesus.

:banghead:

 

[CRW]

:banghead:

Have we forgotten the words of Matthew, chapter 26?

Now as they were eating, Jesus took the bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

This is Catholic Dogma 101.

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

As a reminder, the topic of this thread is NOT the theology of John 6; it is whether or not there is another place in the NT where Jesus gave a hard saying which was not later explained. Please stick to the topic at hand or this thread will be closed and posting privilages will be modified.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary