Z
Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Of course he was wrong. Mary was a Perpetual Virgin. Obviously Jesus could not have had siblings. So Josephus doesn’t seem to know what he is talking about…right?
- Status
E
ericc
Guest
Yep, the Just title seems unfit to someone who didn’t take care of his own mother and don’t show himself when his brother is condemned to die. By all accounts of Jewish customs and laws, that is wrong if James were indeed the son of Mary.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
But not if he were the step-son.
E
ericc
Guest
And that is the whole point. He wasn’t a natural son. Otherwise he would be obliged. But still , why entrust to an outsider over a relative? That’s where my conspiracy theory drops right in.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
John bar Zebedee was a relative, not an outsider.And that is the whole point. He wasn’t a natural son. Otherwise he would be obliged. But still , why entrust to an outsider over a relative? That’s where my conspiracy theory drops right in.
E
ericc
Guest
Your source?
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Scripture.
E
ericc
Guest
Chapter and verse. Thank you.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
John 19:25: “Near the cross of Jesus were His mother, His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”
Salome, the mother of the sons of Zebedee, is the “sister” or female relative of Mary the Mother of Jesus!
E
ericc
Guest
2 versions of thisJohn 19:25: “Near the cross of Jesus were His mother, His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”
Salome, the mother of the sons of Zebedee, is the “sister” or female relative of Mary the Mother of Jesus!
- You have to assume 4 persons and assume that “his mother’s sister” is Salome. But there is no compelling reason to make these assumptions. Furthermore, the Zebedee brothers were never known to be related to Jesus in any way, in any of the Gospels or the epistles. They were never called relatives/kinfolks of the Lord. And Salome as the mother of James and John is a guess arbitrarily tying Mk 15:40 to Mat 27:56 since we do not know whether it is the same instance or different “acts” whereby different personalities appear at different times since there were many other women who came up to Jerusalem Mk 15:41. Salome was mentioned twice in Mark and nowhere else and both times there is nothing to tie her to the Zebedees. Mk 15:39, Mk 16:1. She could very well be a standalone personality.
- 3 persons, his mother’s sister is Mary Clopas supporting the cousins theory. However, based upon tradition, Mary (Jesus) is an only child and unlikely that parents would give the same name to 2 daughters, the “sister” is most likely “sister-in-law” which would tie in to the cousin theory.
- It doesn’t explain why James the Just was not entrusted to care for Mary since the Paul recorded him as the brother of the Lord and not James/John Zebedee. A brother, step or not is still closer than a cousin.
D
dje14338
Guest
In the threads above, many assume that both could not be named Mary. Jesus’ mother’s name is Miriam which unfortunately has been translated as Mary. It is probable that John is a cousin of Jesus on his mother’s side. Eusibus also relates that John and his brother were Jewish priests.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
The tradition was only with sons of the mother, not stepsons.
If James the Just was a cousin, as you suggest, Jesus would have to entrust her to James. But for Him to entrust her to John, John must have been closely related to him.
J
JohnR77
Guest
You seem to be reading into the Biblical text what is not there. The references above to sister and brother had the broader meaning of close relative, and not as how we understand the more narrow English meaning of those words.
The Bible Alone does not give all the details. Amazingly, your analysis is not there either. Go figure…
But the identity of Salome is well attested in the earliest of the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
St. Papias**,**
Bishop of Hierapolis and Apostolic Father, called by St. Irenæus “a hearer of John, and companion of Polycarp , a man of old time” states the following:“(1.) Mary the mother of the Lord; (2.) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphæus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; (3.) Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; (4.) Mary Magdalene. These four are found in the Gospel.”
The Bible does not state it, but Salome’s relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary is attested to by the Fathers of the Church, specifically
Nicephorus Callistus [Historia ecclesiastica, 2.3. PG 145.760, A translation from Charles Wheatly, A Rational Illustration of the Book of Common Prayer, 1794, p. 63.] Also see Hippolytus of Thebes, [Migne’s Patrologia Graeca PG 117,] Andrew of Crete, Epiphanius Monachus, and Andronicus
Which is illustrated here
Am I making some assumptions here ?
Yes I am.
I am assuming
That Jesus died only once.
That there are no “parallel” universes where things happened differently.
That Matthew, Mark and John are describing the same three women at the cross.
If you want to postulate another scenario, then fine. But, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate that.
It would have been self evident that a loving, Jewish and presumably widowed mother of an only child would have been at the cross. Stating that the Blessed Virgin Mary was there would have been practically redundant. Therefore, there was no need for Matthew or Luke to do so. While, John does go out his way to state that she was there, this seems to be in order to draw his readers into the realization of Mary’s role as the New Eve. See MARY the “WOMAN” ]
**Those other three women at the cross are
**1.MaryMagdalene,
2. the “other Mary” who was the wife of Clopas and the mother of James and Joseph (or Joses), and
3. Salome who was Zebedee’s wife and who is described as Mary’s sister.
**Matthew 27:56 **“ …among whom wereMary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.”
**Mark 15:40 **“There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome …”
John 19:25“So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”
RSV
Read more at
defendingthebride.com/ma2/brothers.html
.
**.
**
E
ericc
Guest
Am I? What am I actually reading into it? I am not sure what you are getting at.
I know that. There are a few possibilities and I showed some of the possibilities.
I know that the Bible does not give all the details. But why are you saying that to me? Which statements of mine are in error? If your intent is to correct some statements of mine, please do highlight them so that I can try to defend them if I can. I just state what is written in the Bible. On those non-written, I raise questions and possibilities.
It may be so. But again, what is the point that you are trying to put across?
Agreed. But the Bible is not clear whether it is 3 persons or 4 persons at the cross in Jn 19:25 and the others were clearly three named among others. The Interpretation can go either way. Agreed? If you disagree, you can defend why it MUST be 4 persons at the cross in Jn 19. I look forward to your explanation as to why you are right and other explanations wrong.
OK good to know. But how do I know that the work of Nicephorus Callistus is true and can be relied on? He is after all a thousand years late to the scene. (1256-1335AD) The others hailed slightly earlier, from 7th-9th century. If you can determine that their source of information is attested for by the Church, you would have a very strong case indeed. Unfortunately I do not have access to that data to make a comment. But if you have, by all means do share it.
And what point are you trying to make here? That all 4 gospel writers must agree on every point? They don’t. Their resurrection accounts are conflicting for example.
Have you proven that? The gospel writers could be writing about different scenes/snapshots. In one scene there could be 3 persons on another 4 persons. People are moving around and not static. Some are close by the cross and another instance watching from afar together with other nameless women.
I have nothing to prove because the data is lacking to conclude with precision.
She was of course there. But the question is at that particular scene that each of the writer is writing, was she there? She could be resting, collapsed/fainted caused by the trauma etc. You can not add in stuff that the gospel writers didn’t write about. Otherwise, we could have a lot more suppositions going on there. Everyone would be doing could bes, should bes, ought tos and so on. What is silent should remain silent.
You don’t know that the “sister” of Mary is referring to wife of Zebedee, it could be wife of Clopas. The sentence structure does not allow that absolute determination.
I have nothing against John Zebedee being a cousin of Jesus. But if the Church didn’t declare it, I don’t have to accept it as infallible truth. If anyone wants to make a bulletproof case for it, by all means go for it. But be prepared that the evidence is lacking to support it 100%. At best one can have is a probable case.
But perhaps my logic flow is flawed. You can make an attempt to persuade me that the evidence is sufficient. I can be persuaded but not by repetition and extrapolation. If you evidence is extra-biblical, then many possibilities will be vying for that explanation.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Is not a stepbrother a brother? Is not an adopted brother a brother as well?
- Status