John Hagee at it again!!

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I can see what you mean. However, I find priests who promote being celibate and discuss the ills of fornication much worse when they are molesting kids and sleeping around. What about priests who are ministering to people while saying they are gay? These things don’t quite fit in the same category as a few extra burgers around the belt.
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Point taken however, you do realize that sexual abuse happens at about the same percentage in Protestant denominations right? That isn’t said to bash Protestantism, all Churches are populated by humans and our race is very flawed. Catholicism seems more dramatic because there are so many of us. Numeretically speaking it’s bound to happen to us more often. That isn’t an excuse just noting nature of things.

There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world. The largest Protestant movement is Pentecostalism and is about 75 million (notice that this 75 million is then split amongst hundreds of denominations). It takes much fewer events to add up to the same percentage.

I grew up in the baptist church and experienced 3 ministers within my own churches being pedophiles. In addition there was another minister that tried to seduce my mother telling her that God told him that they were ment to be together while telling my father that should get a divorce.

Now that is four sexually abusive ministers that I alone experienced. Even with that I don’t think that Baptists have a particular problem. So let’s just keep it honest OK? Sorry for the derail.
 
rtconstant said:
Point taken however, you do realize that sexual abuse happens at about the same percentage in Protestant denominations right? That isn’t said to bash Protestantism, all Churches are populated by humans and our race is very flawed. Catholicism seems more dramatic because there are so many of us. Numeretically speaking it’s bound to happen to us more often. That isn’t an excuse just noting nature of things.

There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world. The largest Protestant movement is Pentecostalism and is about 75 million (notice that this 75 million is then split amongst hundreds of denominations). It takes much fewer events to add up to the same percentage.

I grew up in the baptist church and experienced 3 ministers within my own churches being pedophiles. In addition there was another minister that tried to seduce my mother telling her that God told him that they were ment to be together while telling my father that should get a divorce.

Now that is four sexually abusive ministers that I alone experienced. Even with that I don’t think that Baptists have a particular problem. So let’s just keep it honest OK? Sorry for the derail.
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You are preaching to the choir. I am the first to stand up for Catholics and list examples much like yours when discussing this with non Catholics. My point was that people shouldn’t be trying to sweep on someone else’s porch when they have theirs all clogged with clutter. In additon, no matter what the Christian faith, there is a big difference between fornicating, gay lifestyles, and abuse versus having a spare tire in the middle. Catholics (as do other faiths) have fare more ills to worry about in the faith. If people are going to make major judgement calls on this John H. guy, it should be for his message and not because he likes to revisit the salad bar. Come on. We know it’s not considered right with got to be a glutton, but I dount one can make an all sweeping call on him as a man over it.
 
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The channel he is on is only a few channels lower than EWTN on my satelite. 😦 I caught an episode of this series, and the background banner had a young priest with “False Christianity” or the like written under him. Hagee also took a jab at the Church when he said that like those in the Old Testament who worshipped the “Queen of Heaven who held a child in her arms”, we celebrated “sacraments”, and agashdgasd9ugdqwoe3. I just wanted to slap the guy.

It is impossible for me to write coherently when I’m in an e-rage.
 
You are preaching to the choir. I am the first to stand up for Catholics and list examples much like yours when discussing this with non Catholics. My point was that people shouldn’t be trying to sweep on someone else’s porch when they have theirs all clogged with clutter. In additon, no matter what the Christian faith, there is a big difference between fornicating, gay lifestyles, and abuse versus having a spare tire in the middle. Catholics (as do other faiths) have fare more ills to worry about in the faith. If people are going to make major judgement calls on this John H. guy, it should be for his message and not because he likes to revisit the salad bar. Come on. We know it’s not considered right with got to be a glutton, but I dount one can make an all sweeping call on him as a man over it.
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We are in accord. God bless.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
Hello JCPeacekeeper and welcome to CAF!

First of, do you know that in EVERY Mass we hear one OT reading, a psalm, a reading from a non-gospel NT book, and a reading from the Gospel? Do you know that there’s an indulgence for reading the Bible for 30 minutes? My point is that the Bible is important for Catholics and we believe that it is the inspired, inerrant word of God as well. You’re right that Jesus is the Word made flesh, but God’s word cannot replace God Himself. How did you come to know about Jesus–did you rely on your pastor or friends whom are falliable men as well?

Secondly, Catholics affirm and believe that salvation is a free gift from God, that it is once for all, paid in full. (We do not believe that we must “earn” our salvation.) However, this free gift can be rejected due to our God given free will.

Thirdly, it sounds like you believe that if Jews knew Jesus was the Messiah then He’d not been put to death. Did Jesus come to save the Jews and then when His plan failed He died for both Jews and Gentiles? If so, then this calls in question Jesus’ divinity due His lack of foreknowledge. The fact that Paul writes “once for all” suggests that Jesus did not come for only the Jews, but for all people. Also, not all Jews didn’t believe that Jesus wasn’t the Messiah. His Mother certainly did. The Apostles did. The martyrs and the confessors did.

For about the Church and Israel, read this article: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902chap.asp
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Your reminder that salvation is a GIFT, is a VERY IMPORTANT truth. The operative word being GIFT. This gift (like ANY we receive,…money, a trincket, even a car) can be used, abused, ignored or it can be cared for, gently or actively used. It is OUR choice )…WE can do anything we want with it because it was GIVEN to us. That is the same with the GIFT of Salvation. It is there for us. It is OURS…Being a GIFT, we are the ones who decide HOW we will use it. That’s why, when anyone thinks that they can have someone say the ‘prayer of salvation’ they can chalk up the ‘numbers.’ I periodically go to a church who has a portion of their ‘praise and worship’ where the CALCULATIONS of the number of people ‘saved’ (during the previous week) is given to an uproar of cheers. Members of this congregation go out in groups, to malls and other places where people gather, to bring the ‘word’ of salvation to others. When these people SAY the prayer of salvation, they become among the numbers reported. I’m sorry, I feel such sadness when I see and hear the adulation of the congregants. Their pastor/minister…should be telling them the TRUTH. SALVATION is a gift GIVEN to all of us. We don’t need to say a prayer of acceptance, from which time we are thus SAVED, for all time…no matter what. As with any GIFT, we MUST learn its value and treat it accordingly…or choose not to, EVEN if we know its value. We CAN choose to REJECT the GIFT. This is not to say that evangelizing in the ‘market place’ cannot be valuable, but the THINK that ANY or ALL who simply say a prayer, WILL therefore go to Heaven? Rather absurd…and so sorrowful a delusion for all involved.
 
Mr. Hagee and his son both have an odd body shape, I am not sure the problem is gluttony. They are shaped like little squares–very broad shoulders and rather squat. It might be something genetic.
 
Integritus said:
In one of his televised sermons, he was vigorously denouncing several of the Church Fathers (though really, his general point was that there really isn’t any Church Fathers at all) - specifically writings of St. Jerome, St John Chrysostom, Eusebius, St Justin Martyr, and Tertullian, declaring many of their writings as anti-Semitic and some of the first causes of anti-Semitism that would spread into Europe. I couldn’t believe the anger and deceit he possessed when denouncing these great men of God.

:
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Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.
 
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the “greatest” of church fathers; known as “The Golden Mouthed.” A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.
 
In the second century and beyond, many of the principal Church Fathers began to write of Jews as a “rejected people” who were doomed to a life of marginality and misery. Jews were to wander the world as a “despised people.” This image persisted in Christian preaching, art and popular teaching for centuries to come. In certain countries it often led to civil and political discrimination against Jews and in some instances to physical attacks on Jews which resulted in death. However, many Popes, bishops and some Christian princes stepped up to protect Jews, although it was only in the mid-twentieth century that the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations issued major statements repudiating this anti-Judaic theology and began a process of constructive Christian-Jewish interaction.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism
 
The following are just a few examples of how the False Church fathers spoke against the Jews:

The Epistle of Barnabus shows the Church exalted at the expense of the synagogue and the deadly word “Deicide” (the killing of God) appeared in Christian writings.

Justin Martyr charged that the Jews crucified Christ in the highest pitch of their wickedness. It was during this time (150 A.D.) that the first encounter with Replacement Theology was embraced where the church replaced the Jews as God’s chosen people.

Tertullian argued that divine judgment is upon Israel, and Jews are destined to suffer for the crucifixion.

New ideas opposing “law” sprang up as early as 160-320 A.D. Marcion, 2nd century, adopted Matthew 5:17 as key theme to ending God’s law and taught that the grace of God superseded it, rejecting the Old Testament.

Several Church Councils from 341 A.D. to 626 A.D. prohibited Christians from celebrating the Sabbath, festivals, and even eating with the Jews. It seemed that the greatest concern with Judaism on the part of Christians leaders was the attraction that it held for Christians. . . . These rules do not come out of bad relations between Jews and Christians (what would now be called, erroneously, antisemitism), but rather were enacted because relations were good and the authorities wanted to separate the two peoples.
God has always had a remnant who has followed the Torah.

John Chrysostom, 344-407 A.D., preached: "The Jews … are worse than wild beasts … lower than the vilest animals. Debauchery and drunkenness had brought them to the level of the lusty goat and the pig. They know only … to satisfy their stomachs, to get drunk, to kill and beat each other up … I hate the Jews … I hate the Synagogue … it is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews.
Origen, 185-254 A.D., was most responsible for changing the way the Church interpreted prophecy, creating the atmosphere in which Christian anti-semitism took root and spread. He developed a new teaching on “legalism” setting the stage throughout history for the term “legalism” becoming synonymous with Judaism and both being condemned. (Legalism is not the following of the Old Testament Torah as is currently defined by some present-day teachings. Webster’s Dictionary defines legalism as “the doctrine of salvation by good works.”

Using his method the Church began to develop the idea that the Israelites had permanently forfeited all their covenants by rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, that these covenants now belong to the church, and that the church is the only true Israel now and forever. In order to alleviate himself of his sin nature, he castrated himself. Considered to be a heretic, he was excommunicated by two church councils. His later disciples consisted of Gregory, Dionysus, Hieracas, Pamphilus, Eusebius of the Nicene Age).

oneinmessiah.net/FCF.htm
 
who wants to listen to his screamings? he makes no sense.

let s pray for him. he is just trying to rebuild the nation of israel and the temple for Jews to worship God. then will be the end.
 
Please Do A Web Search For “hagee +divorce”. The Man Committed Adultery, Divorced His First Wife And Then “ran Off With The Church Secretary” According To A San Antonio Newspaper. The Southern Baptists Do Not Allow Divorced Pastors, That’s Why He Had To Start An Independant Church. His Official Bio On His Website Never Mentions A First Wife, But She Is The Mother Of Two Of His Children. None Of Us Is Perfect–except Jesus–but The Next Time This Hypocrite Throws Stones At Catholics, You Need To Know Just What Sort Of Man Is Attacking You. He Stands Condemned By His Own Actions And Attitude.
 
I’m not going to listen to John Hagee. I’ve seen enough here. It appears that to describe him accurately may be uncharitable.

I think that the most insightful thing posted in this thread is the quote from the Wizard of Oz, but then I’m very partial to that story because there really is NO PLACE LIKE HOME 😉

I don’t begrudge Protestants. I was one once, just not anymore. But I do dispute mis-characterizing of history, and I really REALLY dispute (and even did so before I was Catholic myself) this fantasy that Catholics are not Christian. At the very least, that’s just SILLY.

That ANYONE at ANYTIME would say that Catholics are not Christian PUBLICLY DISPLAYS (whether they are John Hagee or someone else) that they are IGNORANT, not only about MY CATHOLIC FAITH but also of THEIR OWN. That is truly all there is to say on that matter. They are ignorant and we need to pray for them to become educated.

I’m not going to call anyone a liar. I cannot see into their soul, as God does. But I can confidently say that anyone who says that Catholics are not Christians are WRONG. Whether they are deliberately wrong is between them and God and God help them if they are deliberately misleading others.

We Catholics are members of the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Protestants are members of faiths founded by men, fallible men. My son has taught me to “cut to the chase” rather than babbling on, as I no doubt have already done, so, in keeping with that, if you say you are Christian and you’re not Catholic, then I just have one question for you ~ WHAT WAS THE STATUS OF YOUR CHURCH IN THE YEAR 1500? Silences are not allowed. Indeed silence means confirmation of certain FACTS.

The Defense Rests.
 
WEEGIE said:
Please Do A Web Search For “hagee +divorce”. The Man Committed Adultery, Divorced His First Wife And Then “ran Off With The Church Secretary” According To A San Antonio Newspaper. The Southern Baptists Do Not Allow Divorced Pastors, That’s Why He Had To Start An Independant Church. His Official Bio On His Website Never Mentions A First Wife, But She Is The Mother Of Two Of His Children. None Of Us Is Perfect–except Jesus–but The Next Time This Hypocrite Throws Stones At Catholics, You Need To Know Just What Sort Of Man Is Attacking You. He Stands Condemned By His Own Actions And Attitude.
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Thanks WEEGIE. I didn’t know this. Did not know that S.Baptists mandate that no pastor can be divorced, according to the San Antonio Newspaper. Not that I don’t believe it, but since this is the FIRST I’ve heard of it…HOW can it be verified through church documents/teachings of the S. Baptists. IN WRITING somewhere? I A friend of mine who gives Hagee absolute credibility, believes EVERYTHING he says, without THOUGHT. but denys the credibility of the Catholic Church as it speaks through the Pope who speaks infallably on FAITH AND MORALS. This lady is almost OBSESSIVE about anything promulgated by Mr. Hagee. She went to Israel on one of his tours…has read ALL of the Left Behind books, and NOW, knows EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING…She will not even THINK critically. I find this very disturbing and very sad. She talks about the end times (rapture) etc. and of the coming anti-Christ (that will initially DECEIVE.) yet has NO concern for her CURRENT DECEPTION. It is my contention that IF there was such a thing as the RAPTURE, that the EARLY Christians would NEVER HAVE STOPPED talking about it. It would be ALL OVER the scriptures and/or COMPLETELY accepted by sheer TRADITION of being passed through the ages. It would meet with AUTOMATIC acceptance in the same manner as the Crucifixion. She seems uneasy when I tell her that the RAPTURE only took a foot hold in the 1800’s as a MOVEMENT, that while little groups SPOKE of the possibility that Jesus would come and get them (so they, good Christian followers that they were) would be PROTECTED from the tribulation described in the scriptures, she goes on to say that the information of the rapture was GIVEN TO DANIEL…and that it was SEALED (to the end)…so these early Christians could not have KNOWN about it, since it had not been REVEALED…the information was SEALED…and, if I have it correctly, becomes known in REVELATION…which comes to light through some interpretation of a SLEW of SYMBOLS, which of course only THOSE who BELIEVE could have any knowledge. NO…The RAPTURE was not spoken of by the early Christians because it was NOT being taught. Certainly the early Christain church EXPECTED that the ‘end’ was near…What a MEAN person Jesus would have been NOT to have comforted them with his promise of the RAPTURE, to allay their fears of an impending END of time. Could He have been ‘playing with them?’ He knew of their concern for what they thought would SOON be an END. When he FREELY told of the signs that would come, WHY would he leave them in abject FEAR of such devastation, if He KNEW that they would not have to undergo ANY OF IT because they would have been RAPTURED before ANY of it came about…I mean, was He a sadist of sorts? Of course not. There was no secret to BE KEPT. He didn’t tell them because nothing of the sort existed. If there was to be a RAPTURE…HE would have made SURE his followers were SCHOOLED in its knowledge. There is NO PURPOSE for Him to SEAL UP anything regarding it. It would have been part of the GOOD NEWS which he commanded to be spread to ALL NATIONS…and would not have ‘cropped up’ somewhere and by someone in the 1800’s. That is simply TOO LUDICROUS to even IMAGINE!!!

This same person, in any scriptural dialogue CLOSES all conversation and debate with…“I’m not the one saying it. The BIBLE is saying it.”…So, presumably, if I don’t accept HER interpretation, I am the one who is not open to TRUTH!!! Yet, I know there are scriptures about the ‘end of the world.’ There is NO GOOD REASON why in the telling that this RAPTURE would have been kept a secret from ANY follower of Christ. In fact such a PROMISE would have been the ‘talk of the town.’…This would have been part and parcel of the GOOD NEWS of SALVATION and would have been promulgated THROUGHOUT the AGES (without error) as an assurance to those who remained faithful. It would not EVER have been kept a secret until SUDDENLY in the 1800’s, SOMEONE grabs THEIR OWN interpretation of REVELATION with claims of the UNSEALING of secret that was kept from the early Christian Church. It is just so absurd to me for anyone to fall for such a thing. It defies LOGIC and lines right up with Joseph (Mormon) Smith who claims, again in 1881? that HE is picking up the banner of the early Christian (TRUE church founded by JC) whose corrupt followers died out FOR TWO THOUSAND YEARS, until HE came along to SUDDENLY pick up where these corrupt dead follower left off.

I know I covered a LOT HERE, and I’m sorry. I have probably broken the rules but sometimes I get so frustrated with the REFUSAL of people to use SIMPLE LOGIC as a means of deciphering their thoughts. The influence of John Hagee has a RIPE audience in those that DO NOT or WILL NOT THINK, precicely because they find COMFORT in such things as ASSLURED SALVATION…and the RAPTURE… Go figure. ergh!!
 
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