John MacArthur

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worm:
. By the way I have never heard a protetant or evangelical or bible fundamentalist call anyone a anti-protestant, ever. :o
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Interesing point. But then is that because there is so much tolerance among fundamentalist or Catholics do not engage in hate literature.

I have a question in response to this: can you think of any Catholic that produces books, comics or tracts that use stereotypes and name-calling to convert Protestants? You might find such stuff among some of the more radical traditional Catholics, but I know of none.
 
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worm:
I am an ex-catholic. No hiding. I never heard the gospel for the first 30 years of my life (first 19 active) in the RCC. Was not told that we must **believe **the gospel (1 Cor 15, Mark 1:15) ,that we are to repent of our sins(Mark 6:12), that we must be born again (John 3:1-7). I hope mwfields could objectively look at the other side of the coin.
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With all due respect Worm, if you didn’t hear you didn’t listen. I see and hear, everywhere I look and listen, that we are to repent of our sins, that we are to be “born again”, that we are to lay down our lives and folllow Christ, that we are to love God with all our heart mind and soul, that we are to love our neighbor as ourself.

Possibly, and this is conjecture on my part, you are equating the Mass with a typical Sunday morning Protestant service. I’d readily admit there is more bible teaching, more life self-help type preaching from the pulpit of a Sunday morning Protestant service then a Catholic Mass. But that is not what the Catholic Mass is about. The Catholic Mass, as Scott Hahn put it in the Lamb’s Supper, is Heaven on earth. As a Catholic our biblical study, our words of encouragement, our learning of our Faith and our practicing of our Faith doesn’t begin and end with the Mass.

When I came back to faith I held no loyalty to my Catholic roots. I was open to any church that seemed to suit my fancy. I recall at the time enjoying the energetic preachings from the Protestant pulpits and still hold some of the teachings near and dear to my heart. It wasn’t until l learned just what was occuring at the Mass; the mystical beauty of the Mass that I realized where home was.

I also heard different teachings from different Protestant churches on the same street in my somewhat small town. This confused me and troubled me greatly. Which one preached the truth? The one with the most dynamic and charismatic preacher? How could I be sure?

Thank you Jesus for your church.
 
It is impossible to explore the Catholic faith seriously without being completely immersed in scripture.

I ask you, if you met someone who returned from a visit to the Louvre museum and whined that they didn’t see any “art,” would you worry more about the Louvre museum, or the person who made such an ignorant claim?
 
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worm:
I am an ex-catholic. No hiding. I never heard the gospel for the first 30 years of my life.
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A lot of students drop out of difficult math classes.

But they don’t go to the study groups to try to teach those who chose to stay in the class.

You have found a religion that meets your psychological needs; good for you. Please show some charity and leave this thread alone, as the original poster is clearly in pain.
 
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worm:
I am an ex-catholic. No hiding. I never heard the gospel for the first 30 years of my life (first 19 active) in the RCC. Was not told that we must **believe **the gospel (1 Cor 15, Mark 1:15) ,that we are to repent of our sins(Mark 6:12), that we must be born again (John 3:1-7). I hope mwfields could objectively look at the other side of the coin. I was going to post a bunch of sites mwfields could visit, but they would all get slammed for being anti-catholic. I hope he does his own searching, mabey for testimonies of former catholics/priests/ nuns. By the way I have never heard a protetant or evangelical or bible fundamentalist call anyone a anti-protestant, ever. :o
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O.K. This is not to sound mean or anything but, scincer questions and thoughts.
How did you not hear the Gospel in your 19 years of active RCC? There are four readings from scripture at each sunday mass.

How do you get that we arn’t supposed to repent of our sins (Confession)?

And I hear those how slam protestant denoms as “Un-Christian”.

Peace be with you.
 
Mwfields,

The problem is that folks like MacArthur are starting from all sorts of presuppositions that Catholics (and indeed most Christians) don’t share. If your wife grew up evangelical, then these presuppositions may be surfacing (especially if she feels that her local Catholic church is “spiritually dead”).

I grew up believing many of these things (I attacked a statue of the Virgin Mary with a water hose when I was seven years old, although I should add that my parents scolded me for it afterwards!), and I’ve come to disbelieve them thoroughly. I am still Protestant–of a sort–just barely. I do think that Protestants have some valid points, but I do not think that schism was ever the answer and I hate to see Catholics leave the Roman Communion.

Feel free to send me a private message. I would be happy to correspond with you and/or your wife. I do have some experience with anti-Catholic propaganda, and as someone who is not a Catholic I might possibly have more credibility with your wife than a Catholic apologist would. Or perhaps not. It’s your call.

The basic point you need to make is that Christians have always read Scripture through the lens of the Church’s interpretation. As a Protestant, I’m open to the *possibility *that something the Church hierarchy teaches might contradict Scripture. But it seems obvious that the Church should be given the benefit of the doubt. And when you do that many of the issues clear themselves up very quickly. I cannot find a single Catholic teaching that explicitly contradicts Scripture. There are some (like the Immaculate Conception) that seem to need a bit of a stretch, and as someone brought up Protestant I find such things hard to swallow. But if I were already Catholic I would just trust the Church even on those issues.

The problem is that Americans have imbibed this Enlightenment nonsense that you start with the independent-minded individual and then find a church whose teachings make sense to you. I would say the opposite: you start with the community to which you actually belong, and you only reject its teachings if you become convinced over a long period of time that there is absolutely no way your conscience can ever reconcile itself to the community’s most basic affirmations.

Throw in the antiquity of the Roman Communion, Christ’s promise to Peter, and the amazing ability of the Catholic Church to revive and renew itself when its enemies were ready to pronounce it dead–and I think you have plenty of good reasons for trusting the Catholic Church over a guy like MacArthur. (BTW–I’m using the terms “Roman Communion” and “Catholic Church” synonymously. Roman Communion is more accurate from my perspective, but I know many Catholics are offended by anything short of “Catholic Church” so I throw in that term to show my good will! Also because I’m by no means sure that the Catholic Church does not subsist in the Roman Communion.)

MacArthur himself, ironically, is criticized by other evangelicals for his defense of something called “Lordship salvation.” This is basically just the orthodox Christian affirmation that saving faith involves obedience to Christ as Lord. Nothing as far as I can see that the Protestant Reformers–let alone the NT writers or the Fathers–would not have taught. But in modern evangelicalism this is seen by many as tending toward “salvation by works.” So MacArthur isn’t exactly a proponent of “the Church of what’s happening now.” He’s fairly old-fashioned. Unfortunately, in conservative Protestant circles that also tends to make him anti-Catholic!

Edwin
 
Another word of encouragement from a man with a wife who was once baptist and is today horrified at the things she once believed.

Some people outgrow it. Others, like Mr. McArthur, spread it like a cancer.

Prayers from my wife and me.
 
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worm:
I am an ex-catholic. No hiding. I never heard the gospel for the first 30 years of my life (first 19 active) in the RCC.
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Then you never once attended or paid attention to the Mass.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Thanks to all of you - so much. Even you Worm.

All of this has been such an education, no enlightenment for me. And that’s a good thing.

My wife is a measured, smart worman. It’s not so much that’s she’s willing to accept the ravings of macArthur, but rather that it raises more questions about our church. Our Mass experience isn’;t what it needs to be, due to lack of knowledge, lack of spiritual leadership on my part, having attended for 14 years with small children of our own who, by their nature won’t allow us to ecperience the fullness of the Mass. They are very good kids - well behaved, but they are kids (12, 10 and 4).

She’s a “grass is greener on the other side of the fence” kind of person and she believes that she’ll be better “fed” at one of the “Christian” churches.

Please keep praying.

She attends a prayer group on thursday mornings with about 8 - 10 other women - only one of whom is Catholic. They get some good stuff there, but I wonder what bad theology she may be getting.

Today she told me that she will lead the meeting in two weeks and she wants me to help her develop the program. that, praise God, is a wonderful sign.

I’ve been learning a lot. Studying until the wee hours of the AM every night. last night I studied less and prayed - to mary actually - and asked her to help my wife open her heart and her mind to the truth and that she recognize and question unscriptural teachings. Most of all , though I prayed that she cling to me and that we work through all of this together.

Today was a wonderful day of closeness between us and it was today that she asked me to help her with her prayer group meeting in a few weeks.

So, tonight, when I sign off here, I’m going to pray the Rosary for a continuance of all of this. Oh, I’m going to keep learning and studying, but I’m going to do about 75% praying and 25% studying.

I am thankful for all your prayers. We have a lot to do here - so keep praying for us, please.

God Bless you all.
 
As always Mike, I’ve got your back in prayer.

Did the materials that I sent you arrive yet? There is one more very good piece that just went out to you the other day, so watch for it in your mail. I think you’ll find it invaluable.

The Catholic Society of Evangelists has some VERY good stuff that I recommend. This last piece I sent you is one of theirs.

Just FYI everyone else The Bible Christian Society offers some absolutely GREAT tapes and CDs on apologetics topics that are available for the cost of shipping.

To know and defend your faith is not optional…look at 1st Peter 3:15.
Pax vobiscum,
 
mwfields 👋
You and your wife are in my prayers too. I kept saying Halleluiah the whole time I was reading your thread. You are now on the most incredible journey of your life! It wasn’t until I got hit with the firehose that I really got serious with Christ through his Church.

The only thing I would add is for your wife. Once she starts really experiencing the Mass everything else will pale by comparison. All that ‘light and sound show’ she used to experience will seem noisy and distracting. When she really understands the Eucharist, all the ‘feeding’ she thought she got before will seem like eating a bathtub full of cotton candy: too sweet, way too much fluff to consume, and without any nutritional value.

God bless you and your family in your journey. Since all things are allowed by God to help refine us, I am cheering for you to become the spiritual leader of your family through this event.
 
I will pray the rosary for you. This must be so very painful. I hope you can read Scott and Kinberly Hahn’s great book called Home Sweet Rome.

Also, there are two websites where you can obtain apologetics CD’s. These are both sources of fantastic Catholic apologetics CD’s:

www.catholicity.com
www.biblechristiansociety.com

God Bless you and your family.

In Jesus and Mary,

LSG
 
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mwfields:
Thank you both. All of this will be very helpful to me. I would like to start at the beginning - and that is, I guess, the Bible itself. My understanding is that the books of the Bible were written in, other languages (ancient Greek and others perhaps) and have been translated many times to Latin, German, English and then to this ‘version’ and that ‘version’ that people use today. Word usage, nuance, etc. must surely have been changed, either unintentionally or intentionally over the many years, language changes and versions. Since my wife is willing to accept the Bible as the final arbiter, which version of the Bible (in English) would get us closest to what the original writers words and meaning?

And where can I get a history of the Bible so we can speak directly to how it’s been changed in meaning over the years (if that’s true).

And lastly, help me, I read the same passages in seeveral different versions of the Bible and can easily get many interpretations of each and certainly different meanings from the different versions. How does this square with the bible being God’s holy Word. It seems like His word is ever changing as people write different ‘versions’ and include or exclude different books etc. I want to go to the Bible for answers, but it’s plain to me that different versions will lead me to different answers. It seems to be quite a mess.

Help!
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There is a great book
Where we got the Bible? by Henry Graham that you can purchase through the Catholic Answers Website.

May I also direct you and your wife to the Catholic Catechism? Each of her questions can be answered in the Catechism, and each of those answers correspond to Holy Scripture. For instance, relying upon the magisterium is covered in the Catechism beginning with:
[2032](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2032.htm’)😉 The Church, the “pillar and bulwark of the truth,” "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75

and you will notice that it quotes Holy Scripture (Timothy 3:15)

I am so very sorry that you and she are going through such a test of faith…and that she would be lead astray by ONE CD! If she needs to be strengthened in her faith, may I also refer you both to the biblechristiansociety website. Their CDs are free.
 
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worm:
I am an ex-catholic. No hiding. I never heard the gospel for the first 30 years of my life (first 19 active) in the RCC. Was not told that we must **believe **the gospel (1 Cor 15, Mark 1:15) ,that we are to repent of our sins(Mark 6:12), that we must be born again (John 3:1-7). I hope mwfields could objectively look at the other side of the coin. I was going to post a bunch of sites mwfields could visit, but they would all get slammed for being anti-catholic. I hope he does his own searching, mabey for testimonies of former catholics/priests/ nuns. By the way I have never heard a protetant or evangelical or bible fundamentalist call anyone a anti-protestant, ever. :o
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Then you never attended Mass…the gospel is read at EVERY Mass.
And you are not an ex-Catholic. You are only fallen away from the fullness of the faith. Welcome home to this website, and I hope you will learn that you can return to the fullness of the faith, rediscover Christ present Body Blood Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist and hopefully rediscover your birthrite!
 
We’re not done here by any menas, but her’s an update for all of you. Keep us in your prayers, but as someone wiser than me once said:

“the most important things is not so much where you are, but rather in which direction you are heading.”

I think we’re heading in the right direction in many ways.

We’ve had several real good discussions of all of this and last night my wife boiled it down to three issues for her:
  1. the Mary issue - and last night she listend intently to the Bible Christian Society’s tape on that topic. (what a tremendous education and help thaose tapes have been for me - thanks CM)
  2. Praying to the Saints - and tonight she’s eager to listen to the take on the Communion of Saints
  3. The energy/life/nature of her Sunday “worship” service - we’ll get to that point soon
  4. The living faith of her non Catholic friends as compared to the seemingly dead faith of her Catholic friends. - we’ll get there too.
At any rate, we’ve got it to reasonable, easily managable issues and, I think one of them is now satisfied for her. More study and prayer will help her move further.

So send me whatever advise you have. Point me in directions that you think will give me insights that I don’t have on the Mass, and the other issues - and please keep up in your prayers.

Thanks again to all of you.
 
May I make one suggestion regarding the ‘dead faith’ of her Catholic friends?

I would challenge your wife to accept the calling of the Holy Mother Church to minister to these Catholics. Perhaps, HER vocation is to revitalize their FAITH!!! She has an advantage! She can speak to the fact that without constant study, prayer and an eager hunger for the word of God one can be almost AMBUSHED by the devil in the form of Christianity (remember the scripture passage in Acts about false prophets - sheeps clothing - wolves among the lambs?) Perhaps, this brush with Mr. McArthur was a way for the Holy Spirit to inspire your wife to start a Bible Study at your Parish to ignite a love for Holy Scripture in other Catholics.

The fact that we hear the Word every time we are at Mass is sometimes lost on us…we can get complacent. Get yourselves down to your parish priest and get to WORK…the Holy Mother Church NEEDS you right NOW…
 
Very well said Leslie! I agree.

Having fallen away for as long as I did, (over 30 years) I was really distressed by all the stuff that I heard n-Cs say about the faith that I flat knew to be untrue and it was that that got me digging for the truth that I found right here at home. It is that better understanding of the faith that has brought it to life within me, though I know that is really the work of the Holy Spirit.

I have no doubt that each of us have gifts & talents that Our Lord is calling us to use within His church (as is said in the Mass) “for our good and the good of all His church”. Now I look for chances to encourage others at church functions and and anywhere else that Our Lord opens a door.

I ain’t much, but what I am is His, to use as He sees fit.

Let’s use some scarey terms here. I think it’s time for a strong Catholic “revival”. And it will be one that will drive our n-C friends and the anti-Catholics straight up the wall. I really don’t think that the Catholic Church is gonna get all that much smaller and even then only in the sense of a seed falling into the ground & and dying to begin to grow and bear 100% more fruit.
When that happens…LOOK OUT! 👍 :clapping: :dancing:
Pax vobiscum,
 
An Update!

Things are moving in the right direction.

This has been quite stressful on me, but it’s also been an exhillerating and meaningful process in learning about what I believe - and why. Perhaps, when we’re settled and together here, I can help others like you all have helped me. Wouldn’t that be a hoot?

God certainly does work in mysterious ways.

Please keep our little family in your prayers.
 
yeah…i had a run-in with a john macarthur freak. i am quite convinced that if anyone is the anti-christ, its him.

that’s just my two cents.
 
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mwfields:
An Update!

Things are moving in the right direction.

This has been quite stressful on me, but it’s also been an exhillerating and meaningful process in learning about what I believe - and why. Perhaps, when we’re settled and together here, I can help others like you all have helped me. Wouldn’t that be a hoot?

God certainly does work in mysterious ways.

Please keep our little family in your prayers.
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Keep reading and keep posting. Your family has remained in my prayers. What an amazing gift to finally know the what and the why. I know it led me back to The Faith to be challenged. It sounds like you’re doing great!
 
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