John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[guanophore]

And I would add that most believe the CC does not preach the true Gospel with respect to both justification, and the substitutionary atonement of the cross.

This is an excellent example of how people do not understand what the Church teaches, and leave as a result of their misunderstanding. I agree, ignorance on this point is rampant, and it is not preached well enough.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

And I would add that most believe the CC does not preach the true Gospel with respect to both justification, and the substitutionary atonement of the cross.

Who Really Preaches Another Gospel? For thousands of years most believed the earth was flat and was the center of the universe. Doctrine is not determined by a majority opinion.

IMO, that’s the pot calling the kettle black.

You really have no idea what a mighty work God did in me to make me Catholic. Coming from a vehemently anti-Catholic background, it was not easy to cross the Tiber. It was hard enough to acknowledge that Catholics are Christians - let alone become one of “them”

 

[guanophore]

Assumes that those leaving the Catholic Church are not educated Catholics.

They may be educated, that does not mean they were educated about their faith.

Was Martin Luther an educated Catholic?

He seems to have done and said a great deal of things that indicate otherwise. In retrospect, it seems more likely he was suffereing from a psychiatric disorder.

How ‘bout Calvin and the others, were they educated Catholics, or uneducated morons?

You left out an option. Someone who is baptized Catholic can most certainly be a very well educated moron when it comes to matters of faith.

And if it were true that an encounter with an educated Catholic by those leaving would cause them to stay in the Church, wouldn’t that be a win, win for both parties, IYO?

I believe it would. I certainly would not want to draw public attention to someone making a grave mistake, and shipwreck of their faith. I am glad no one did that to me, as I have enough to be ashamed of when I look back.

I’m not suggesting a “fanfare,” guanophore, but a counterbalance to an existing stage that celebrates the entrance of former protestants into the CC.

Perhaps your buddy Pastor John will start a radio or TV program for this?

It would be immoral for us to do so.

 

[M0nkey]

And I would add that most believe the CC does not preach the true Gospel with respect to both justification, and the substitutionary atonement of the cross.

Maybe a bit off topic, but what does justification mean to you? Can a man name himself blameless before the Lord? Or is it the Lord who justifies? And when you do become justified what does that mean in the eyes of eternal salvation? In other words, let’s say you have faith, is it the same thing as expecting to be saved? How is this not presumptuous and self-sanctimonious on your part?

 

[denwiles]

“Upon this rock I will build My church” He did not say, “Peter’s church”. That rock is Christ. I Cor. 10:4, “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

Christ is the ROCK. “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built His house on the Rock.” Matthew 7:24
Each one of us is the Church. The Church is the People not an institution. Each time the Bible uses the word Church it can be seen as people. Upon this Rock I build my people and the gates of hell won’t prevail against my people. God’s people are built on Christ. A man can’t build people. He neither created them nor can he save them, and he can’t sanctify them, justify them. Only Christ can do these things. We are built on Christ ******
It all goes back to this one thing, Jesus said call no man teacher, He said I am the great teacher. So what did he mean? He didn’t mean not to use the title, but you have one great teacher, JESUS. Men go astray when they look to men for teaching. Mormons have gone astray because they let a man become their teacher. When we go outside scripture for teaching we go astray. So I agree with you!!! You know what is ironic. When men bowed down to Peter he make them get up and said I am just a man as you are, get up! But now some people bow down to people and statues. Whats up with that? Well it’s because they were taught that way, and they will fight for that wrong as it is until they die. I seen the false teachings I was brought up with and said something isn’t right. Then I began to pray and study for myself, and the Holy Spirit led me down the right path you know the one few find. So I am praying people will make Jesus their teacher and listen and do his words and build their souls upon the ROCK which is Christ Jesus.

 

[denwiles]

They may be educated, that does not mean they were educated about their faith.

He seems to have done and said a great deal of things that indicate otherwise. In retrospect, it seems more likely he was suffereing from a psychiatric disorder.

You left out an option. Someone who is baptized Catholic can most certainly be a very well educated moron when it comes to matters of faith.

I believe it would. I certainly would not want to draw public attention to someone making a grave mistake, and shipwreck of their faith. I am glad no one did that to me, as I have enough to be ashamed of when I look back.

Perhaps your buddy Pastor John will start a radio or TV program for this?

It would be immoral for us to do so.

True men of God that LOVE CHRIST LOVE People and don’t call them names not even their enemies. Love covers a multitude of sins. Read 1 COR 13. THIS DESCRIBES GOD and those who follow God. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits they bare. And they will know you by the Love you have for one another. People disagree with me all the time and I still love them. When people act like this I’m not saying you, because I can’t judge you. They show a lack of love, Faith, knowledge, kindness and Guidence from the Holy Spirit. Love Jesus and People, show mercy and it will be given to you. Don’t hurt people just because they disagree with you. The Bible says these things shall remain Faith, Hope and Love. We are all Children of God. In Heaven you won’t get anywhere with God by saying “Hey God it’s me the Catholic, boy I really let them dumb protestants have it for you. He Will say hey I died For the Protestants, just as I died for you.” God Bless you my friend in Jesus. And remember a wise man loves the one who rebukes Him. A fool hates him and despises him. I said these things out of Love, so that you would learn to Love as Christ Loves the Church, His People.

 

[MrS]

Christ is the ROCK. “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built His house on the Rock.” Matthew 7:24
Each one of us is the Church. The Church is the People not an institution. Each time the Bible uses the word Church it can be seen as people. Upon this Rock I build my people and the gates of hell won’t prevail against my people. God’s people are built on Christ. A man can’t build people. He neither created them nor can he save them, and he can’t sanctify them, justify them. Only Christ can do these things. We are built on Christ ******
It all goes back to this one thing, Jesus said call no man teacher, He said I am the great teacher. So what did he mean? He didn’t mean not to use the title, but you have one great teacher, JESUS. Men go astray when they look to men for teaching. Mormons have gone astray because they let a man become their teacher. When we go outside scripture for teaching we go astray. So I agree with you!!! You know what is ironic. When men bowed down to Peter he make them get up and said I am just a man as you are, get up! But now some people bow down to people and statues. Whats up with that? Well it’s because they were taught that way, and they will fight for that wrong as it is until they die. I seen the false teachings I was brought up with and said something isn’t right. Then I began to pray and study for myself, and the Holy Spirit led me down the right path you know the one few find. So I am praying people will make Jesus their teacher and listen and do his words and build their souls upon the ROCK which is Christ Jesus.

All well and good Dennis. Not the topic of the thread, but their are many threads, open to everyone, which discuss Peter, rock, Church etc.

If your interpretation, or this interpretation of someone which you have bought into is correct,…

Then all the words in the Gospels, of Jesus Himself, become suspect… especially those words when He gives instructions, and powers, and direction ONLY to Peter or Peter and the Apostles.

His plan is NOT to let every and any man be the teacher. And it is certainly not His plan to let any man or woman teach lies. Jesus is the Truth. That is what the Catholic Church has been defending for 2000 years.

It is the Office of Peter which must be filled (read a good commentary on the “keys” in Matt 16)
It is this office to which Jesus instructs “… feed My sheep, tend My flock, feed My sheep…”

Your suggestion is that the sheep should or could tend to themselves.,… no need for a Good Shepherd,… and no need for the plans He put in place to see His Church grow until He returns.



By the way, Protestants, on the whole adapt to a strange way to “teach”

1] They use Paul as the major reference for all their innovations
2] It is Paul’s writings which we told are hard to understand (by Peter)
3] With the exception of Paul’s quoting Jesus’ words on the importance of His Real Presence, Paul does not quote Jesus
4] Thus the protestant rarely will explore the Gospels and study Jesus, other than to quote a verse, say it inspires, and then just move on.

That is a major difference in Catholicism and all the faith communities.

Catholicism is the ONLY Church Jesus built on Peter the Kephas’ authority.

Thus all faith communities are really not churches with respect to the way Christ used the word (and we know He introduced the word for the first time in Matt 16).

So your above statement is good. Unless one is 'teaching" Jesus, he man not be teaching Truth. Same as “…call no man father…” Yet Scripture, the Word of God, is clear in calling Abraham and others Father… for they are our Fathers in Faith, just as the ministerial priesthood established by Jesus.

anyway… back to the topic.

.
.

 

[Tomster]

My bad, I should have posted Howie privately. As you can see I’m a “New Member” here. Differences came about because the freedom a genuinely born again child of God has, allows them to personally go to Him and ask Him to guide him personally through His Word. When we live in that liberty the frailties of the flesh and still having that fallen nature, there will be variations of interpretations on issues that are not critical to salvation. Even the Apostle Paul confronted Peter when Peter himself was in error! The problem you deal with as Catholics is that the church does your thinking *for *you and you *must *accept it as true even if you personally don’t agree nor understand it. Concerning having the Son, He dwells in one’s heart by faith, and faith alone. The Words were not literal but Spirital. To be taken literally is to be made a canibal. Besides if you truly believe the Bible, read Hebrews 10 and it makes it clear that Christ made one sacrifice for all time and sat down. In your transubstantiation you sacrifice Him over and over and over and over… and it will never take away sin. “Do this in memory of me” I’m curious, how do you feel of “your” first pope being married?

Ronald H.,

The Baptists exemplify in a striking way the importance of a name in the genesis and developement of a religious movement. It was a mere accident of history that they came to be called Baptists, as a term of opprobrium to describe their insistence on immersion and profession of believer’s baptism. They accepted the title and capitalized on it as a synthesis of fifteen centuries of controversy over the sacrament of regeneration, and a mark of their ancestry from apostolic times.

In common with the Donatists they hold that baptism is invalid unless conferred by one of their own sect.

In common with the Arians they deny that baptism removes the stain of original or actual sin.

In common with the Waldenses and Albigenses they reject infant baptism as superstition and against the words of the Bible.

In common with the Anabaptists they claim that no one can be validly baptised until after a personal confession of faith in Christ as his Savior, and consequently demand rebaptism (anabaptism) of all those baptised in infancy.

In common with the English Separatists they require immersion in water as the only mode of baptism allowed by Sacred Scripture.

For further study I recommend that you research the terms:
opprobrium
Donatists
Arians
Waldenses
Albigenses
Anabaptists
English Separatists
English Baptists
American Baptists
Northern Baptists
Southern Baptists
Black Baptists
Racism

This goes for you too Howie. :hey_bud:

 

[fishisgood]

As I read this threadopcorn: when Baptists question our history I wonder if they ever look at there own Southern Baptist history and there use of scripture to rationalize slavery and segregation. If this is not true please correct me.

 

[guanophore]

Christ is the ROCK. “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built His house on the Rock.” Matthew 7:24
Each one of us is the Church. The Church is the People not an institution.

You have espoused a deficient understanding of Church. Church begins with Christ as the head, and is built, by Him, on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets. The Church of today is not different from the One Church established by Him. To the extent that the modern members are not in unity with the Apostles, then they are improperly attached to the Church.

Each time the Bible uses the word Church it can be seen as people. Upon this Rock I build my people and the gates of hell won’t prevail against my people. God’s people are built on Christ. A man can’t build people. He neither created them nor can he save them, and he can’t sanctify them, justify them. Only Christ can do these things. We are built on Christ ******

Of course, but none of that equates to not having structure in the building.

It all goes back to this one thing, Jesus said call no man teacher, He said I am the great teacher. So what did he mean? He didn’t mean not to use the title, but you have one great teacher, JESUS. Men go astray when they look to men for teaching.

It seems this is also the fault of Jesus, for authorizing the Apostles to teach, and to appoint teachers,

When we go outside scripture for teaching we go astray.

This, in itself, is an extrabiblical doctrine.

Then I began to pray and study for myself, and the Holy Spirit led me down the right path you know the one few find. So I am praying people will make Jesus their teacher and listen and do his words and build their souls upon the ROCK which is Christ Jesus.

It is good that you have set yourself to find the truth. Jesus committed it to His One Church, then promised to guard it to prevent it from error.

 

[M0nkey]

True men of God that LOVE CHRIST LOVE People and don’t call them names not even their enemies.

From what I gather no one is calling you names here, just stating the facts and standing up for truth. Something I don’t see done very often in this day and age. Men are called to be polite, that is, to polish the rough surfaces and chisel them in way that reveals the fullness of truth.

Each one of us is the Church.

So according to you, there are over 5+ billion denominations on the planet? Splendid, more splitting and dicing brought to you by Protestant ideology. Paul clearly says that we are one body in Christ; one body, one baptism, one faith, one Lord. No, when we accept Peter, we acknowledge his authority and the authority of the one who sent him. You are not your own authority, God is at the source of it all.

 

[RonaldH]

Ronald H.,

The Baptists exemplify in a striking way the importance of a name in the genesis and developement of a religious movement. It was a mere accident of history that they came to be called Baptists, as a term of opprobrium to describe their insistence on immersion and profession of believer’s baptism. They accepted the title and capitalized on it as a synthesis of fifteen centuries of controversy over the sacrament of regeneration, and a mark of their ancestry from apostolic times.

In common with the Donatists they hold that baptism is invalid unless conferred by one of their own sect.

In common with the Arians they deny that baptism removes the stain of original or actual sin.

In common with the Waldenses and Albigenses they reject infant baptism as superstition and against the words of the Bible.

In common with the Anabaptists they claim that no one can be validly baptised until after a personal confession of faith in Christ as his Savior, and consequently demand rebaptism (anabaptism) of all those baptised in infancy.

In common with the English Separatists they require immersion in water as the only mode of baptism allowed by Sacred Scripture.

For further study I recommend that you research the terms:
opprobrium
Donatists
Arians
Waldenses
Albigenses
Anabaptists
English Separatists
English Baptists
American Baptists
Northern Baptists
Southern Baptists
Black Baptists
Racism

This goes for you too Howie. :hey_bud:

You use some big words, it’s nice to see at least some type of historical recognition by a catholic to a pre-Luther linage to a Christian church other than their own. I think most of what you said concerning their beliefs were accurate and commend you for the post!

 

[Howie01]

Pixie Dust:

You really have no idea what a mighty work God did in me to make me Catholic.

Where in Scripture does the Spirit teach that God makes people Catholic? (Catholic with a capital “C”).
Pixie Dust:

Coming from a vehemently anti-Catholic background…

Where in Scripture do any of the writers refer to those who oppose the body of Christ as anti-Catholic?

…it was not easy to cross the Tiber.

Where in Scripture is it stated that in order to be saved one must cross the Tiber?

 

[Howie01]

guanophore:

This is an excellent example of how people do not understand what the Church teaches, and leave as a result of their misunderstanding.

Assumes, without support, that people who leave the CC do so because they don’t understand Church teaching.

guanophore:

Well, of course not. Use your common sense, man. How can someone give a reason that they don’t know exists? They think they know.

You continue to assume the reason given by Cavin is the only reason people leave the Church.

guanophore:

How is it that you are allowed to talk to them, and reach a conclusion, but we are not?

No one’s stopping you from coming to California and talking to ex-Catholics from my church.

guanophore:

They may be educated, that does not mean they were educated about their faith.

With your just added qualification, you’ve changed the meaning of your statement.

guanophore:

He seems to have done and said a great deal of things that indicate otherwise.

Luther had a masters in theology, by current standards, that ThM would be a doctorate degree, he was an Augustinian monk, and he taught theology as well. Please explain how that makes Luther not educated in his Catholic Faith.

guanophore:

In retrospect, it seems more likely he was suffereing from a psychiatric disorder.

In the retrospect of whom?

guanophore:

It would be immoral for us to do so.

Please explain how it would immoral for EWTN to air a television program conducting interviews with Catholics exiting the Church, but it’s not immoral for them to air a television program conducting interviews with Protestants entering the Church?

 

[MrS]

Summary of this thread:

Say one thing…
Howie responds “merely your infallible opinion”

Say another thing…
Howie responds “…where in Scripture…”

But what I find most intriguing… from post # 357:
*My suggestion to you, MrS, is rather than read scripture in light of what it inspires in you, *read it for the authors’ intent.

Which is EXACTLY what protestants either
[1] Refuse to do … they might end up seeing the Catholic Church coming from Jesus

[2] are unable to do, because none of their sources were around when much of what Jesus taught to the Church were written down and eventually made the canon by the same Church Jesus founded.

[3] choose to read it as interpreted by their anti-Catholic or non-Catholic self appointed leaders… MacArthur chief among them along with J White, Jack Chick etc

And I will continue to follow a practice of reading Scripture with commentaries, cross references, centuries of dialogue etc … both to attain as much inspriration as I can… and to learn more ways to love God and all that he does for us.

The Holy Spirit will not divide the ONE Church founded by Jesus. It is man’s free will that separated that man from the Church.

Luther was a heretic
Calvin was a heretic
etc
etc

And the content of many well-meaning non-Catholic posters here simply re-state the heresies which the Church will reject and condemn, guided by the Holy Spirit.

.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Where in Scripture does the Spirit teach that God makes people Catholic? (Catholic with a capital “C”).

John 17:20-23 -
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus intended for His followers to be ONE, as He and the Father are one. Unity in doctrine is very important to the Church which Christ founded. Unity in doctrine is only found in the Catholic Church.

Where in Scripture do any of the writers refer to those who oppose the body of Christ as anti-Catholic?

Luke 11:23 - He that is not with me, is against me; and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

Where in Scripture is it stated that in order to be saved one must cross the Tiber?

Matthew 16:24 - Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. “Crossing the Tiber” is a figure of speech, meaning to unite oneself with the Church founded by Christ and His Apostles. Scriptures teach that salvation is a journey, St Paul likens it to a race. I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

Where in Scripture does it say that in order to be saved one must “ask Jesus into your heart”? For that matter, where in Scripture does it say that only Scripture is necessary to grow in faith? Where in Scripture does it say which books are inspired?

 

[Howie01]

MrS:

By the way, Protestants, on the whole adapt to a strange way to “teach”

1] They use Paul as the major reference for all their innovations

And the Catholic refers much to unwritten oral traditions, traditions for which they cannot provide an accurate list telling us which apostle didn’t write which unwritten tradition, for their innovations.

MrS:

2]It is Paul’s writings which we told are hard to understand (by Peter )

Anyone taking a few moments to read what Peter says in context will see that MrS’s statement is completely false.

MrS:

3] With the exception of Paul’s quoting Jesus’ words on the importance of His Real Presence, Paul does not quote Jesus

Amazing—MrS understands the self-claimed authority of the office of apostle as it resides in his Pope, but MrS hasn’t clue with respect to the authority of the office of apostle as it resides in the apostle Paul, himself.

MrS:

4] Thus the protestant rarely will explore the Gospels and study Jesus, other than to quote a verse, say it inspires, and then just move on.

And MrS can say this with authority because he’s attended every Sunday service that’s ever been conducted in every non-Catholic Church in the entire world.

(FYI, MrS—early this year, our pastor finished preaching through the Gospel of Luke. With the exception of few excursions elsewhere in scripture, he preached through Luke each Sunday. He began doing that in early in 1998, and finished early 2009—in case you can’t do the math, that’s 11 years of Sundays on the Gospel of Luke.)

 

[guanophore]

You use some big words, it’s nice to see at least some type of historical recognition by a catholic to a pre-Luther linage to a Christian church other than their own. I think most of what you said concerning their beliefs were accurate and commend you for the post!

Alll educated Catholics understand that there were many heresies rampant before those of the Reformation splintered the Church.

 

[Howie01]

Pixie Dust:

Jesus intended for His followers to be ONE, as He and the Father are one. Unity in doctrine is very important to the Church which Christ founded. Unity in doctrine is only found in the Catholic Church.

Respecfully, that doesn’t answer my question.

I’ll post it again:

Where in Scripture does the Spirit teach that God makes people Catholic? (Catholic with a capital “C”).

Pixie Dust:

Luke 11:23 - He that is not with me, is against me; and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

My question is specific:

Where in Scripture do any of the writers refer to those who oppose the body of Christ as anti-Catholic?

Pixie Dust:

Matthew 16:24 - Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

“Crossing the Tiber” is a figure of speech, meaning to unite oneself with the Church founded by Christ and His Apostles. Scriptures teach that salvation is a journey, St Paul likens it to a race. I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

And where in Scripture do we find this figure of speech “Crossing the Tiber?”
Pixie Dust:

Where in Scripture does it say that in order to be saved one must “ask Jesus into your heart”?

It doesn’t say that, but neither do I say that.
Pixie Dust:

For that matter, where in Scripture does it say that only Scripture is necessary to grow in faith?

It doesn’t, but neither do I say that.
Pixie Dust:

Where in Scripture does it say which books are inspired?

It doesn’t say which books of Scripture are inspired; it says “all Scripture is inspired.”

 

[phoenix3212]

It doesn’t say which books of Scripture are inspired; it says “all Scripture is inspired.”

What about those deuterocanonical books then?

Amazing—MrS understands the self-claimed authority of the office of apostle as it resides in his Pope, but MrS hasn’t clue with respect to the authority of the office of apostle as it resides in the apostle Paul, himself.

You fail to understand Catholic teaching when it comes to the papacy. The Pope is not an Apostle, but succeeds one, that being Peter. In the same way, President Obama is not a Founding Father, but succeeds George Washington, who was.