John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[jam070406]

Of course not everyone is going to agree with what someone else might say.

Interesting comment.
How can the Holy Spirit lead to different interpretations of scripture?

You would think God would have left an infallible guide.

 

[distracted]

Today, United States Reformed minister and radio preacher John MacArthur has as his featured homepage article: “Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?”

In his argument that the Catholic Church is not Biblical, he cites as the most significant reason: “its denial of the doctrine of sola Scriptura”

Now that is some world class irony.

why is it irony? don’t most protestants adhere to sola scriptura… and reject the RCC because she does NOT?

 

[distracted]

I used to really like him, I even almost got the John MacArthur Bible.

i used to like him too… but didn’t know he was anti-Catholic…

i dont’ see how a true Christian can be anti-Catholic…

well, maybe i am jumping the gun? He just says the RCC is wrong on sola scirptura… Maybe that is not the same as being anti-Catholic?

anyway, if people would just study history, they would desire to become Catholic… but i guess some just want to stay irnognat…

 

[distracted]

At least he puts Catholicism under the umbrella of “Christianity” – even if he calls it “false and deceptive.” When Macarthur is good, he is very good. But he’s off the wall when it comes to Catholicism.

yes but we should not forget that Cathlics are often very good… but then sometimes thye are “off the wall”… don’t practice what they preach… and frankly, i feel they have far less excuse to be “dislocated” esepcially if thy attend Mass every day or most days…

to whom more is given, more is required…

 

[ppasa316]

Interesting comment.
How can the Holy Spirit lead to different interpretations of scripture?

You would think God would have left an infallible guide.

Could be that certain churches are not interpeting the scripture correctly. They easily twist the scriptures to say what they want it to say.

 

[jam070406]

Could be that certain churches are not interpeting the scripture correctly. They easily twist the scriptures to say what they want it to say.

How does one determine which pastor is right?

Could it be Jesus built One Church, upon a rock (Peter), with guidance and protection of The Holy Spirit to safeguard the Truth? :newidea:

 

[pnewton]

Thank God I was born a Catholic, and that I (and many forum members) have been endowed with the grace to see through his balderdash.

One of the singular graces I received in my conversion to Catholicism was this exact issue with John MacArthur. In his defense of sola scriptura he had to engage in intellectual dishonesty in the interpretation of Paul’s writing to Timothy. When I heard him substitute “sufficient” into the passage where it logically could not exist, I realized sola scriptura was simply no in scripture and was a contradiction in logic. I think it is so funny that others have seen the same thing.

 

[DLClark]

All MacArthur has to do is prove that Sola Scripture is contained in the Scriptures. But, since he is not with us on these message boards at this present time, perhaps you can speak for him and give us your own oral tradition on the matter.

I have no oral tradition that interprets the Bible. 2 Peter 1:16-21; 2 Tim 3:16; Revelation 22:18-19; Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6.

These verse in the Bible tell us that the Bible is the main thing. We are not to add to Bible or take away from it. When traditions, that do not come from the Word of God but that are kept on par with the Bible, are part of a religion that religion is guilty of adding to the Word which God condemns.

 

[Tomster]

I have no oral tradition that interprets the Bible. 2 Peter 1:16-21; 2 Tim 3:16; Revelation 22:18-19; Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6.

These verse in the Bible tell us that the Bible is the main thing. We are not to add to Bible or take away from it. When traditions, that do not come from the Word of God but that are kept on par with the Bible, are part of a religion that religion is guilty of adding to the Word which God condemns.

Thank you for giving us your own interpretation, oral tradition if you will, on the matter.

 

[DLClark]

i used to like him too… but didn’t know he was anti-Catholic…

i dont’ see how a true Christian can be anti-Catholic…

well, maybe i am jumping the gun? He just says the RCC is wrong on sola scirptura… Maybe that is not the same as being anti-Catholic?

anyway, if people would just study history, they would desire to become Catholic… but i guess some just want to stay irnognat…

True Christians are not anti-Catholic. They just disagree with Catholic doctrine. It is not biblical. In America I thought we are free to think and disagree without being impugned for our views.

 

[Tomster]

True Christians are not anti-Catholic. They just disagree with Catholic doctrine. It is not biblical. In America I thought we are free to think and disagree without being impugned for our views.

Please show us where Catholic doctrine is not biblical. You are not being impugned for your “views.” You are being shown the errors of your “beliefs.”

 

[DLClark]

Please show us where Catholic doctrine is not biblical. You are not being impugned for your “views.” You are being shown the errors of your “beliefs.”

The veneration of Mary, pregatory, salvation by works, traditions that are not found in the Bible, believing one can lose their salvation, praying to saints. Lack of assurance of being in heaven when you die, These just a few.

 

[reteeks21]

The veneration of Mary, pregatory, salvation by works, traditions that are not found in the Bible, believing one can lose their salvation, praying to saints. Lack of assurance of being in heaven when you die, These just a few.

Do you do anything in your church that is not found in the Bible?

 

[MrS]

I have no oral tradition that interprets the Bible. 2 Peter 1:16-21; 2 Tim 3:16; Revelation 22:18-19; Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6.

These verse in the Bible tell us that the Bible is the main thing. We are not to add to Bible or take away from it. When traditions, that do not come from the Word of God but that are kept on par with the Bible, are part of a religion that religion is guilty of adding to the Word which God condemns.

Yep, and the automobile is our main thing for transportation. All the different versions can only get us safely to a destination if the rules are followed.

Protestantism would take the car and run it backwards or in first gear, or with the parking break on and each would say they are right.

The “instruction manual” for the Book of the Catholic Church… is… the Catholic Church.

Not John MacArthur
Not Jame White,
Not Billy Granham
Not Rick Warren,
Not Oprah’s religion
…and not the founders or structures of the thousands of man/woman made faith communities that each claim guidance of the Holy Spirit.

If a protestant chooses to operate the vehicle of the Bible, and tosses out most of the standard equipment, called graces (Sacraments, Saints, devotions, Worship, Liturgy etc), just to spite the manufacturer, so be it.

.

 

[MrS]

The veneration of Mary, pregatory, salvation by works, traditions that are not found in the Bible, believing one can lose their salvation, praying to saints. Lack of assurance of being in heaven when you die, These just a few.

veneration of Mary… hhmmm
The Gospel of Luke recounts how “… ALL generations shall call me blessed…”
Which word is it that needs to be changed to deny that?

Purgatory… hhmmmm
If you had an understanding of the atonement, this would not be so foreign to you

Salvation by works…hhmmmm
The Catholic position is that we are saved by Grace Alone, through Faith alone, working in Love. If you choose to remove one of the legs of that stool… so be it.

Praying to saints…hhmmm
The Bible announces that “… welcome good and faithful servant…” continues with the teaching that now they have more to do. Can’t be for each other, can’t be for the eternally condemned… hhmmmm
And the Saints are more alive than we are.

Losing your salvation… hhmmmm
I wonder what St Paul was asking other to pray for… something that he had gained and feared losing.

I have assurance… in the Mercy and Love of Christ… not in myself.
I also know that God has gifted me with free will to accept, reject, accept, reject… just like the prodigal son. Guaranteed Heaven is not love… Heaven is the gift of inheirantance that we merit. (another word misunderstood by separated brethren)

.

 

[DLClark]

veneration of Mary… hhmmm
The Gospel of Luke recounts how “… ALL generations shall call me blessed…”
Which word is it that needs to be changed to deny that?

Purgatory… hhmmmm
If you had an understanding of the atonement, this would not be so foreign to you

Salvation by works…hhmmmm
The Catholic position is that we are saved by Grace Alone, through Faith alone, working in Love. If you choose to remove one of the legs of that stool… so be it.

Praying to saints…hhmmm
The Bible announces that “… welcome good and faithful servant…” continues with the teaching that now they have more to do. Can’t be for each other, can’t be for the eternally condemned… hhmmmm
And the Saints are more alive than we are.

Losing your salvation… hhmmmm
I wonder what St Paul was asking other to pray for… something that he had gained and feared losing.

I have assurance… in the Mercy and Love of Christ… not in myself.
I also know that God has gifted me with free will to accept, reject, accept, reject… just like the prodigal son. Guaranteed Heaven is not love… Heaven is the gift of inheirantance that we merit. (another word misunderstood by separated brethren)

.

The Luke passage does not tell us to venerate Mary. We are to love the Lord our God with all of out heart soul and mind. To venerate May is put her in competition with our love for God. We then have a divided love.

Paul told us “to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.” sounds like Paul did not believe in purgatory.

Anything added to faith alone for salvation is a work and the Bible condemns this idea. A plan of salvation like faith+works=salvation is anathema to the Bible, John 3:16; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

Not one place in the Bible does it say to pray to saints. The Bible tells us that Christians today are saints today. Jesus says that we are to pray to The Father in His name. That is how we are to pray.

Paul never thought he would lose his salvation other wise he would never have written Romans 8. We can lose rewards but never, never that which God promises to keep for us, our salvation, John 10:27-29.

We can never merit heaven. Here is a question for you and please share your answer with me please.
Q. Have you done enough good works to merit God justifying you?

 

[MrS]

The Luke passage does not tell us to venerate Mary. We are to love the Lord our God with all of out heart soul and mind. To venerate May is put her in competition with our love for God. We then have a divided love.
Venerate = honor and does not infringe on worship which is reserved for God alone. On the contrary, we honor His mother and He does too.

Paul told us “to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.” sounds like Paul did not believe in purgatory.
Yeah, that verse was presented to me just recently… and my answer from the Church which recorded it was much more reflective of Truth than what you have gleaned from it.

Anything added to faith alone for salvation is a work and the Bible condemns this idea. A plan of salvation like faith+works=salvation is anathema to the Bible, John 3:16; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.
So, since Paul used “faith” so many times, and he used “alone” so many times, we (you) should see that he NEVER used them together… although they do appear together, preceded with “not by”. Additionally, Paul opens and closes his discussion of faith, in Romans, with “the obedience of faith”. Spin it the way you wish, but obedience is an action, a work, by us.

Not one place in the Bible does it say to pray to saints. The Bible tells us that Christians today are saints today. Jesus says that we are to pray to The Father in His name. That is how we are to pray.
Not once in the Bible does it say everything which Christ taught, and the Catholic Church received is in the Bible. We should at least agree that it is not forbidden (please do not confuse with trying to conjure up the dead as discussed in the OT).

Paul never thought he would lose his salvation other wise he would never have written Romans 8. We can lose rewards but never, never that which God promises to keep for us, our salvation, John 10:27-29.
Agree. None of the items listed by Paul… a list of 7 sins, and a list of 9 sins I think… will cause us to lose the love from God. But neither list includes the option/possibility of our own rejection of the gift of eternal life. The sinner can be forgiven.

We can never merit heaven. Here is a question for you and please share your answer with me please.
Q. Have you done enough good works to merit God justifying you?

hhmmmm… a good presentation of what you get when you self-interpret the Catholic Book.

Q. Have you done enough good works to merit God justifying you?
A#1: no, because I do not believe that God will justify me on what I do. Therefore I do not believe that the sinner’s prayer(not in Scripture), altar call (no altar), etc are sufficient actions(works) on my part to “make” God justify me.
A#2: no, because faith (saving faith, and any other meaning makes no sense) without works is dead).
A#3: no, because the Catholic Church has never taught the definition of merit that you erroneously imply in the question.
**A#4: ** no, because the implication (and erroneous Protestant teaching) is once saved always saved. St Paul, the Catholic Apostle to the Gentiles, clearly teaches the continuing process of justification.

Additionally, I need to pick up my cross and follow Him daily. Don’t know about you, but I have some trouble being totally faithful to Him every second. I, like all others, will probably die with some attachment (even a small one) to something of this world. And since nothing unclean will enter Heaven… I thank God for His merciful gift of purgation of those attachments.

I also am grateful to belong to the Church of the Saints in Heaven.

.

 

[ppasa316]

How does one determine which pastor is right?

Could it be Jesus built One Church, upon a rock (Peter), with guidance and protection of The Holy Spirit to safeguard the Truth? :newidea:

Its easy does what the priest teaches in line with God’s Word. We could go on and on about What Jesus said about the church not a pebble like Peter.

 

[MrS]

Its easy does what the priest teaches in line with God’s Word. We could go on and on about What Jesus said about the church not a pebble like Peter.

Are you suggesting that, say, 1Peter, does not belong in Scripture? Or are you agreeing that the office of the “chief steward” or “prime minister” as described in Isaiah and quoted by the Lord in Matt 16 is one of acting in the absence of the King until He comes again.

Is it Peter who is infallible, or the Office established by Christ?

.

 

[DLClark]

. Have you done enough good works to merit God justifying you?
A#1: no, because I do not believe that God will justify me on what I do. Therefore I do not believe that the sinner’s prayer(not in Scripture), altar call (no altar), etc are sufficient actions(works) on my part to “make” God justify me.

So a person then is justified as the Bible says by faith Romans 5:1?
A#2: no, because faith (saving faith, and any other meaning makes no sense) without works is dead).
Dead faith does not mean no faith at all. You say your car battery is dead does that mean you have no car battery at all? No. It means your battery is no working as intended. So it is the same with dead faith. This type of faith is not working the way God intended. It does not mean that there is no faith at all. James is writing to saved people telling then what to do with their faith and not how to get faith.
A#3: no, because the Catholic Church has never taught the definition of merit that you erroneously imply in the question. I am so sorry you feel that way but you have no biblcal justification for your idea here. I am so very sorry .
A#4: no, because the implication (and erroneous Protestant teaching) is once saved always saved. St Paul, the Catholic Apostle to the Gentiles, clearly teaches the continuing process of justification.

Once saved always say is not Protestant, baptist, or Catholic in doctrine. It is biblical. The Bible clearly teaches this fact. Read 1 John 5:13. Please read this verse in context starting at verse 11-17 and you will see that it says you can know for sure that when you die you will be in heaven. If the Bible says that you can know for sure then can you know for sure or not?

Additionally, I need to pick up my cross and follow Him daily. Don’t know about you, but I have some trouble being totally faithful to Him every second. I, like all others, will probably die with some attachment (even a small one) to something of this world. And since nothing unclean will enter Heaven… I thank God for His merciful gift of purgation of those attachments.

Have you read James 2;10? Purgatory is not a gift. It is a way of frightening people into being obedient. Love is a better way. Jesus says He has forgiven us all of our sin. That is good enought for me. When we sin, fellowship not salvation is broken. 1 Jn. 1:8-10 tells us to confess our sins to God and then He will forgive us our sins. We do not need a priest because all true christians are believer priets today able to directly go directly to God for personal forgivenss of their sins.