John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[RonaldH]

Yes, the bible states that the foundation and bulwark of Truth is the Church, no?

The Holy Scriptures declare itself to the be bulwark of Truth. “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” John 17:17. The complication of this matter is that when you have human beings (fallen at that) declaring to you what is truth, it is what Christ was speaking of as having another “foundation”. Christ warned, “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” Matthew 15:9. Again the Bible declares of Itself, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” II Timothy 3:16

Please do not misunderstand me for I am not a MacArthur apologist, I was born and raised Catholic. I do understand what the church teaches in some areas and know my current relationship with our Savior was founded on personal faith in Him alone. Concerning Baptism, it is a lovely picture of a death, burial and ressurrection, but a dry sinner baptised comes out of the water a wet sinner. If you try to defend baptising infants it is avoiding the main question of regeneration. Philip was sharing God’s Word with an Etheopian eunuch in the book of Acts wherein you find this: "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” Acts 8:35-37. Baptism, a pre-requisite…that is “if you believe”. It is why baptism is sometimes referred to within much of evangelical Christendom as “believers baptism”. One must believe prior to being baptised. Even John the Baptist rejected people who wanted to be baptised by him. Read, Matthew 3:7,8, "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” THEY had to bring evidence of prior repentance first!

 

[jam070406]

The Holy Scriptures declare itself to the be bulwark of Truth. “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” John 17:17. The complication of this matter is that when you have human beings (fallen at that) declaring to you what is truth, it is what Christ was speaking of as having another “foundation”. Christ warned, “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” Matthew 15:9. Again the Bible declares of Itself, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” II Timothy 3:16

Please do not misunderstand me for I am not a MacArthur apologist, I was born and raised Catholic. I do understand what the church teaches in some areas and know my current relationship with our Savior was founded on personal faith in Him alone. Concerning Baptism, it is a lovely picture of a death, burial and ressurrection, but a dry sinner baptised comes out of the water a wet sinner. If you try to defend baptising infants it is avoiding the main question of regeneration. Philip was sharing God’s Word with an Etheopian eunuch in the book of Acts wherein you find this: "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” Acts 8:35-37. Baptism, a pre-requisite…that is “if you believe”. It is why baptism is sometimes referred to within much of evangelical Christendom as “believers baptism”. One must believe prior to being baptised. Even John the Baptist rejected people who wanted to be baptised by him. Read, Matthew 3:7,8, "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” THEY had to bring evidence of prior repentance first!

Again I ask, why do you deny what those in the early Church, that were handed on the Faith by the Apostles, taught?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The Holy Scriptures declare itself to the be bulwark of Truth.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Scripture says no such thing and Jn 17:17 isn’t saying that Scripture is the bulwark of the truth. Scripture however does say the following:

if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God,** the pillar and bulwark of the truth**. 1 Tim 3:15

Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, not scripture and It is the Church which is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

God bless

 

[DLClark]

You really defended what I was saying all along. It is faith that leads to salvation not works. Works is a by product of our faith in Christ. Why use the thief on the cross, it is very simple. Since he didn’t have a chance to produce any good works does this man not enter heaven. No one every said you are not to produce any works I think you are missing the point on this thread. My point is that your Faith in Christ lead to Salvation not by your works.

Very good. This is what Eph 2:8-9 teaches as well are many, many other passages.

 

[jam070406]

Very good. This is what Eph 2:8-9 teaches as well are many, many other passages.

And also the Council of Trent:

Canon 1: If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

saints.sqpn.com/trent06.htm

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

You mean like this one:
Faith without works is dead.
James 2:26

Proof-texting does not meet the problem.​

Catholics & Calvinists agree (more or less) that

• Works before justification are of no value to salvation - even if they are good otherwise

A big disagreement comes here:

• Works after justification, done in the power of Christ’s grace, are meritorious: that is, there is an increase of grace per accidens, though not substantially

[the Catholic position]

• Works after justification, even though done in Christ, are in no sense meritorious. Salvation is totally gratuitous in a sense that absolutely excludes all human merit in all senses.

Another agreement:

• The Christian is not to be idle, but is be fruitful in good works

A very important question now arises: how is the relation between God’s activity & man’s activity to be thought of ?

• Calvinism is monergistic - Catholicism, at least in its language, is synergistic.

Monergism is a special application, to the doctrine of salvation, of the universal causality of God - His Causality is the cause & “environment” of human causality: the former contains the latter, & is indispensable to its being, life, activity, continuance & results. Monergism is not pantheism, because it is conditioned & balanced by the fact that God is a Creator-God.

Catholics criticise monergism as swamping human freewill - Calvinists criticise synergism for what they see as an undermining of the sovereignty of God as Saviour, so that man becomes his own saviour.

Synergism is comparable to the flow of two rivers from different springs that meet - one river stands for God’s action, the other for man’s.

As to why there are differences, there are many reasons, one of the main ones being the doctrine of grace. It has in Calvinism the same ubiquity the doctrine of the Church has in Catholicism. Another is, that the two Christianities emphasise different doctrines; as well as not agreeing on whether certain theological positions count as Christian doctrine at all. Calvinism might be called Pauline in outlook, & Catholicism, Johannine.

The issue can’t be solved by prooftexting because:

• chucking texts about is not the same as putting them together in their contexts & making an argument
• IOW - there is great difference between quoting verses, & constructing a theological argument: neither set of doctrines will make sense if those who don’t hold the doctrines, don’t think theologically about them
• the same verses are often interpreted in incompatible senses by those who are quarrelling with one another
• Prooftexting is a form of sloganeering - it may convince the prooftexter, but it does not impress the person it’s chucked at.
• It is all too often a substitute for thought

 

[Pixie_Dust]

You really defended what I was saying all along. It is faith that leads to salvation not works. Works is a by product of our faith in Christ. Why use the thief on the cross, it is very simple. Since he didn’t have a chance to produce any good works does this man not enter heaven. No one every said you are not to produce any works I think you are missing the point on this thread. My point is that your Faith in Christ lead to Salvation not by your works.

Actually, it is GRACE that is a gift from God, that gives us faith - faith that works through love. Faith and works are two sides of the same proverbial coin. If you have true, saving faith you will have good works, or fruit, to show for it. No fruit, no faith. That’s the Catholic teaching. We don’t teach or believe that our works alone save us.

The thief on the cross is not a good example because he was hanging on a cross, breathing his last breath. He did defend our Lord to the other thief hanging there, which is very much a work of faith on his part. If you’re hanging from a cross, breathing your last, I’m not signing you up to go feed the orphans in Cambodia. If you’re not hanging from a cross, what’s your excuse?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Very good. This is what Eph 2:8-9 teaches as well are many, many other passages.

Eph 2:10. We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS.

 

[josie_L]

Eph 2:10. We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS.

This OSAS business is starting to become a pain in the A S S.

 

[josie_L]

http://www.goodha.com/FStore/Work_Files/2007/9/5/25/thr_25_56203214.gif

Hey, where did you get that smiley icon?

 

[jam070406]

Eph 2:10. We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS.

How bout some 2 Peter 10? Douay-Rheims style.

10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

How bout some 2 Peter 10? Douay-Rheims style.

10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

Amen! Being a former KJV-er, I love the D-R.

 

[guanophore]

How is this irony. When we look at what Catholics teach and what the Bible has to say we find that they are not in harmony with each other. some points to look,

I am sure that your perceptions of it are not in harmony.

You are proceeding from a false assumption that the Apostolic Teachings not found in scripture must harmonize with your interpretation of scripture.

The Catholic Doctine oa Mary is not found in the Bible but in traditions.

The fact that there are Teachings not found in the scripture, or in the case of Marian doctrines, found only implied in scripture, does not mean that they don’t harmonize with scripture. There must be complete harmony of scripture with Sacred Tradition, because they both come from the same Source.

Purgatory is not found in the bible either. There are many many more I could bring up.

Protestants believe in Purgatory too, they just don’t call it that. All who believe in the second coming accept that “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed”. Purgatory, or the state of being made fit for heaven, is outside of time.

Protestants also accept 1 Cor 3:12-15 …now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw - 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This describes purgatory. Purgation is a Latin word meaning “purified with fire”. So, you see, it is in scripture.

The Catholic plan of salvation is a works oriented system which Eph 2:8-9 condemns.

DL, Catholic Answers Forum is not a venue for you to spread lies about the Catholic faith. We are here to answer sincere questions about Catholicism. I have read too many of your posts to think that you are here to learn what the Catholic faith really teaches. I hope you this will change, but I can assure you , if you wish to continue posting here, you will have to refrain from posting such lies.

If you cannot exercise self control, and feel that you are compelled to publish such lies on the internet, you will have to find some where else to exercise your compulsion.

 

[guanophore]

First MacArthur is not in the reformed church movement. He is independent. what is wrong with his statement on Sola Scriptura.? He is right.

All the children of the Protestant Reformation have been influenced by the heresies of the Reformation. He may believe that he is independent, but his theology demonstrates that he stands in a 500 year old tradition of “a different gospel”.

You are correct, the Catholic Church rejects the heresy of Sola Scriptura. What is ironic is that this doctrine itself is extrabiblical and man made.

 

[guanophore]

John MacArthur is one of the best bible teachers there is. I really enjoy what he has to say. Of course not everyone is going to agree with what someone else might say. I think so long as he can back it up with scripture he’s got to be right on the point. I also recommend his study bible. It is great.

Well, unfortunately, people can come up with all kinds of heresies and “back them up with scripture”. This has been happening since scripture was penned. That is why Jesus had to appoint a teaching authority in the Church. He replaced the pharisees who were on the seat of Moses with the Apostles, and authorized them to teach.

 

[pismopal]

I was attending a commencement speech delivered by McArthur some years ago and he delivered this line…" We don’t need a Magisterium ". I remember thinking…yes John… all we need is John McArthur to tell us what the Bible means and don’t you think he doesn’t do just that. He has a serious disorder IMO.

 

[pismopal]

Very good. This is what Eph 2:8-9 teaches as well are many, many other passages.

You are cherry picking “verses” and ignoring the overall message of the Bible. You cannot claim to be a Christian without overt actions in the spirit of Christianity…such as missions…prayer…charity…life changes…loving. If you think these are not works then we have a semantic issue going on.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I was attending a commencement speech delivered by McArthur some years ago and he delivered this line…" We don’t need a Magisterium ". I remember thinking…yes John… all we need is John McArthur to tell us what the Bible means and don’t you think he doesn’t do just that. He has a serious disorder IMO.

It’s ironical isn’t it? Papal infallibility and the Papacy brings such terror to some non-Catholic Christians, yet they want us to reject one Pope only to accept another

God bless

 

[guanophore]

I have no oral tradition that interprets the Bible. 2 Peter 1:16-21; 2 Tim 3:16; Revelation 22:18-19; Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6.

Oh, but you do! Sola Scriptura is just such a tradition.

Your oral tradition also instructs you not to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church.

These verse in the Bible tell us that the Bible is the main thing.

No, they don’t.

We are not to add to Bible or take away from it.

This being the case, it would be interesting to justify why your spiritual ancestors found it necessary to remove some of the books used by Jesus and the Apostles.

When traditions that do not come from the Word of God but that are kept on par with the Bible, are part of a religion that religion is guilty of adding to the Word which God condemns.

I agree, Sola Scriptura being at the top of the condemned list. The other five elements of the TULIP not far behind.

 

[guanophore]

True Christians are not anti-Catholic. They just disagree with Catholic doctrine. It is not biblical. In America I thought we are free to think and disagree without being impugned for our views.

What you are showing here is your prejudiced belief that Catholics are not “true Christians”. Of course you are free to disagree with Catholics! You are bringing your prejudice, however, to a Catholic forum! We are not here to provide you with a venue in which you can insult our faith, and our integrity as Christians. CAF is here to provide Catholic Answers to persons making sincere inquiries.