John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[ppasa316]

I am sure that your perceptions of it are not in harmony.

You are proceeding from a false assumption that the Apostolic Teachings not found in scripture must harmonize with your interpretation of scripture.

The fact that there are Teachings not found in the scripture, or in the case of Marian doctrines, found only implied in scripture, does not mean that they don’t harmonize with scripture. There must be complete harmony of scripture with Sacred Tradition, because they both come from the same Source.

Protestants believe in Purgatory too, they just don’t call it that. All who believe in the second coming accept that “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed”. Purgatory, or the state of being made fit for heaven, is outside of time.

Protestants also accept 1 Cor 3:12-15 …now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw - 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This describes purgatory. Purgation is a Latin word meaning “purified with fire”. So, you see, it is in scripture.

DL, Catholic Answers Forum is not a venue for you to spread lies about the Catholic faith. We are here to answer sincere questions about Catholicism. I have read too many of your posts to think that you are here to learn what the Catholic faith really teaches. I hope you this will change, but I can assure you , if you wish to continue posting here, you will have to refrain from posting such lies.

If you cannot exercise self control, and feel that you are compelled to publish such lies on the internet, you will have to find some where else to exercise your compulsion.

Dude you are crazy. Protestants do not nor ever will believe in purgatory. No where in scripture do you read about purgatory. God’s Word (not mine) says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord). It does not say we go in between heaven and earth waiting to earn our way into heaven. To the believer we have the confidence that we will be in heaven with the lord when we leave this life. You can believe what you want but I think I will stick to Gods Word.

 

[Protestant101]

They don’t call it that, but I have yet to meet a Protestant that does not agree with us that nothing unclean can enter heaven. We all agree that any uncleanness in us when we die must be removed so that we can be pure before God. Latin Catholics call this purification by fire “purgatory”. But, we should take this up on another thread.

Protestants do not believe in Purgatory; MacArthur was right on with a lot of things he said.

 

[DLClark]

And also the Council of Trent:

Canon 1: If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

saints.sqpn.com/trent06.htm

Then you believe that we are justified by faith, Romans 5:1. You also believe that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. That is what the Bible teaches and and I am pleased to hear it. You are correct in saying that works have no part in our salvation. God has done it all for us and now all He askes of us is to accept what He has already done.

 

[jam070406]

Then you believe that we are justified by faith, Romans 5:1. You also believe that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. That is what the Bible teaches and and I am pleased to hear it. You are correct in saying that works have no part in our salvation. God has done it all for us and now all He askes of us is to accept what He has already done.

Here are all the canons:

Canons Concerning Justification

Canon 1: If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 2: If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

Canon 3: If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.

Canon 4: If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.

Canon 5: If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man’s free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing only in name, indeed a name without a reality, a fiction introduced into the Church by Satan, let him be anathema.

Canon 6: If anyone says that it is not in man’s power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil as well as those that are good God produces, not permissively only but also propria et per se, so that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Saint Paul, let him be anathema.

Canon 7: If anyone says that all works done before justification, in whatever manner they may be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins, let him be anathema.

Canon 8: If anyone says that the fear of hell,[113] whereby, by grieving for sins, we flee to the mercy of God or abstain from sinning, is a sin or makes sinners worse, let him be anathema.

Canon 9: If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 10: If anyone says that men are justified without the justice of Christ,[115] whereby Her merited for us, or by that justice are formally just, let him be anathema.

Canon 11: If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost,[116] and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12: If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 13: If anyone says that in order to obtain the remission of sins it is necessary for every man to believe with certainty and without any hesitation arising from his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him, let him be anathema.

Canon 14: If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified,[118] or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema.

Canon 15: If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined,[119] let him be anathema.

Canon 16: If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation,[120] let him be anathema.

Canon 17: If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.

continued…

 

[jam070406]

Canon 18: If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace,[121] impossible to observe, let him be anathema.

Canon 19: If anyone says that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor forbidden, but free; or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians, let him be anathema.

Canon 20: If anyone says that a man who is justified and however perfect is not bound to observe the commandments of God and the Church, but only to believe,[122] as if the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life without the condition of observing the commandments, let him be anathema.

Canon 21: If anyone says that Christ Jesus was given by God to men as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey, let him be anathema.

Canon 22: If anyone says that the one justified either can without the special help of God persevere in the justice received,[123] or that with that help he cannot, let him be anathema.

Canon 23: If anyone says that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace,[124] and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or on the contrary, that he can during his whole life avoid all sins, even those that are venial, except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin, let him be anathema.

Canon 24: If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 25: If anyone says that in every good work the just man sins at least venially,[126] or, what is more intolerable, mortally, and hence merits eternal punishment, and that he is not damned for this reason only, because God does not impute these works into damnation, let him be anathema.

Canon 26: If anyone says that the just ought not for the good works done in God[127] to expect and hope for an eternal reward from God through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if by doing well and by keeping the divine commandments they persevere to the end,[128] let him be anathema.

Canon 27: If anyone says that there is no mortal sin except that of unbelief,[129] or that grace once received is not lost through any other sin however grievous and enormous except by that of unbelief, let him be anathema.

Canon 28: If anyone says that with the loss of grace through sin faith is also lost with it, or that the faith which remains is not a true faith, though it is not a living one, or that he who has faith without charity is not a Christian, let him be anathema.

Canon 29: If anyone says that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again,[130] or that he can indeed recover again the lost justice but by faith alone without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and Universal Church, instructed by Christ the Lord and His Apostles, has hitherto professed, observed and taught, let him be anathema.

Canon 30: If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world[131] or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened,[132] let him be anathema.

Canon 31: If anyone says that the one justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal reward,[133] let him be anathema.

Canon 32: If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.

Canon 33: If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, let him be anathema.

 

[MrS]

Mr. S, you come here and make your statements as if your church was the only church in existence the first 15 centuries. Do you arrogantly believe that the Catholic Church was the only church for the first 15 centuries? I, born a Catholic reject your arrogance! Where you there during the Inquistion? Do you have a CLUE how many “Ana-Baptists” where murdered by Catholics before the Reformation? I assume you call me a “weak” Catholic. Weak or strong I was LOST, as any and every man without personal faith in Christ and Christ alone! Do you have a clue how ignorant you come across? I assume you as other well intended Catholics trust in your church, Mary, Eucharist, Baptism, Confession, the Stations of the Cross, your Rosary, Holy Water, Your Sacraments and basically how supremely “good” you think you are to gain entrance into heaven. I love Catholic people and enjoy their friendship and love daily, your arrogance is a shame to all that Christ ever attempted to do in changing the hearts of man!

If you had a better understanding of the meaning/intention of the word Church… you might understand that the Catholic Church is actually still the only Church on the face of the earth.

When Christ introduced the word in Matt 16 it was the first use of the word Church in Scripture. (not used in the OT).

**Jesus declared He would build it **(not a man, and not an inventor of another form of faith, be it “ana-Baptists” or whatever.

He declared it would be His, not Calvin’s , Luther’s or whatever.

and He declared it to be singular, not Churches. The whole concept of this one Church as described in ACTS, as referenced by St Paul, and as universally understood by all the world for centuries was one Church. You can refer to it as “The Way”, as ACTS does, or as Catholic, as St Ignatius did around 100AD. But you cannot refer to it as Baptist, as Lutheran, as Pentacostal. Including the word Church into your faith community is your mistake. Granted the current use of church is quite common. The Yellow Pages will let anyone call their faith community a church.

But I would prefer to use words as they were meant when the human authors (no ana-Baptists there) were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write much (not all) of what was passed on them by the Lord Himself.

There will be One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism. There will be one New Jerusalem and one one Heaven.

You can call me or any Catholic arrogant. That might be true if we though I or we could convert you the the Church and faith Jesus gave us. But we can not. Only God can convert you. Our obligation is to defend His Truth, explain it as we can, and share it with you. I am very blessed to have been born into the Church of the Saints in Heaven, and with that comes more responsibility.

I apologize if you misunderstand the Faith, and call the defense of it ignorant. Obviously you have issues with all things Catholic and have walked away. Those in John 6 also walked away. The great gift of free will allows you to do just that.

I have the faith that allows me to believe in Christ… and more so, to believe in EVERYTHING He passed on to the Apostles.

Your Triune baptism makes you a member of the Body of Christ. You are part of the family. But you have chosen to live outside the House of God… kinda like being in the back yard in a tent, throwing verbal stones at the Church and her members.

.

 

[MrS]

Then you believe that we are justified by faith, Romans 5:1. You also believe that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. That is what the Bible teaches and and I am pleased to hear it. You are correct in saying that works have no part in our salvation. God has done it all for us and now all He askes of us is to accept what He has already done.

Works of the law are what St Paul is describing… different from his use of works (Charity etc)

You have faith, hope, and love(charity).

And the Greatest of these is… hhmmmm??

.

 

[jam070406]

Dude you are crazy. Protestants do not nor ever will believe in purgatory. No where in scripture do you read about purgatory. God’s Word (not mine) says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord). It does not say we go in between heaven and earth waiting to earn our way into heaven. To the believer we have the confidence that we will be in heaven with the lord when we leave this life. You can believe what you want but I think I will stick to Gods Word.

Perhaps you should learn the official Catholic teaching on Purgatory before you comment further on it, because, based on this response it seems you truly don’t know anything about it.

 

[josie_L]

For all those who believe in OSAS what do you make of this scripture:

“The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded **according to his own labor. **For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.” 1 Corinthians 6:3

 

[reteeks21]

For all those who believe in OSAS what do you make of this scripture:

“The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded **according to his own labor. **For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.” 1 Corinthians 6:3

I personally don’t think there is any sort of contradiction between the two. It makes perfect sense to say that you will be rewarded based on your works. Those that have been redeemed WILL do good works. If they have no desire to do so they really need to examine themselves.

 

[Tomster]

Yes, the bible states that the foundation and bulwark of Truth is the Church, no?

You are correct.

 

[Tomster]

I was attending a commencement speech delivered by McArthur some years ago and he delivered this line…" We don’t need a Magisterium ". I remember thinking…yes John… all we need is John McArthur to tell us what the Bible means and don’t you think he doesn’t do just that. He has a serious disorder IMO.

I agree. It’s the old slight of hand routine that our esteemed adversaries on this thread fall for time and time again. Consider the scene. A preacher standing in the pool-pit telling the congregation that “it’s Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible,” and then the preacher will go on to give his spin on various verses expecting the congregation to accept it as “Gospel.” Pity them if they confront the preacher with their own spin on the same verses.

 

[Tomster]

I know what I know by Gods Word not a fuzzy feeling that you may have. Don’t respond again please with this kind of nonsense. If you are going to respond please let us go to scripture.

Sure, ok., fine. Let’s go to Scriptures. But before we do, can you assure me that your interpretation of the Scriptures will be infallible? I mean, for you to explain Scripture to me you will have to convince me that you have the absolute, correct, definitive commentary on the verses you choose to discuss in order for me to believe you.

In other words, you will have to convince me that your teachings or oral tradition is absolutely, positively correct. And just remember that when you do give me your explanation of whatever verses you choose to discuss, your explanation will be extra-biblical; translated, not found in the Bible. You will then be setting yourself up as THE infallible magisterial teacher for the rest of us, Protestants included.

But, if you choose to take this route, you will be denying probably the most important dogma of all of Protestantism, that of private judgement.

So, you see, you and the rest of our esteemed non-Catholic Christian brethren posting on these threads have really painted yourselfs into a corner.

Do you understand any of this? Again, I question your epistemology (How do you know what you know?) :hey_bud:

 

[DLClark]

What does the Bible say about how we are saved. The Catholic canon is only as good as it agrees with the Bible. Salvation in the Bible is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone and not of works. Water baptism, holy Communion, good works, marriage, joining the church, are not part of salvation. When these are added to faith alone they become works that man does and Eph 2:8-9 tells us that works have no part in our salvation. Titus 3:5. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy we are saved.

 

[Shannon9791]

What does the Bible say about how we are saved. The Catholic canon is only as good as it agrees with the Bible. Salvation in the Bible is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone and not of works. Water baptism, holy Communion, good works, marriage, joining the church, are not part of salvation. When these are added to faith alone they become works that man does and Eph 2:8-9 tells us that works have no part in our salvation. Titus 3:5. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy we are saved.

How many times does Jesus say in the Gospels that one must do something to attain salvation? What does he tell the rich man? Go, sell all you own, pick up your cross and follow me. You keep on saying that all that is necessary is faith (which in and of itself is a action taken by you) but James says faith without works is dead. So who are you going to go with, Jesus or Paul?

 

[MrS]

What does the Bible say about how we are saved. The Catholic canon is only as good as it agrees with the Bible. Salvation in the Bible is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone and not of works. Water baptism, holy Communion, good works, marriage, joining the church, are not part of salvation. When these are added to faith alone they become works that man does and Eph 2:8-9 tells us that works have no part in our salvation. Titus 3:5. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy we are saved.

If you really believe what you just typed then you must consider getting rid of your Bible, tossing your hymn books, tearing down or selling your gathering place, forgeting about all your fellowship etc etc.

If you really think any of those actions, efforts, works of your choice are forbidden (in the Book of the Catholic Church), then you must listen to your belief, and be saved by Jesus alone.

If you think any of those actions, efforts, works of your choice are helpful (perhaps in growing closer to Jesus, and increasing in grace and holiness, fine… continue.

Just consider that the Catholic Church received many more of those means of “assistance” from Christ Himself. The sacraments, the devotions, the Liturgy, etc are all the things rejected by non-Catholics in their “quest” to replace Christ and the gifts from Christ with Christ alone.

Gives a whole different meaning to the word believe… kind of a pro-choice thing.

.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

What does the Bible say about how we are saved. The Catholic canon is only as good as it agrees with the Bible.

I’m not sure what you mean here by Catholic canon? The Catholic Church canonized the Bible, so by recognizing the 27 books of the NT, you agree that the Catholic Church was led by the Holy Spirit in declaring those books to be inspired Scripture.

Salvation in the Bible is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone and not of works.

True, saving faith is never alone, and Scripture says very clearly that we’re NOT saved by faith alone.

Water baptism,

John 3:5; Acts 2:38, 22:16; Galatians 3:27

holy Communion,

John 6:51, 53, 56, 58

good works,

James 2:21, 24, 25

marriage,

What do you know, I agree with this one!

joining the church,are not part of salvation.

How does one enter heaven without becoming part of the Church, which is the Body of Christ? Are you universalist?

When these are added to faith alone they become works that man does and Eph 2:8-9 tells us that works have no part in our salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 says that God has works for us to do. Why do non-Catholics always forget that the same person who wrote Eph 2:8-9 also wrote verse 10?

Titus 3:5. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy we are saved.

Look at that passage in context and see if you still believe that good works are not important for a Christian.

1**Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
**
2To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that **they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. **These things are good and profitable unto men. (KJV)

 

[guanophore]

What does the Bible say about how we are saved. The Catholic canon is only as good as it agrees with the Bible.

The NT was written by the Catholic Church, DL, so what it says about salvation reflects what the CC believes and teaches. If it did not, then the documents would not have been included. So, what we have here is your personal interpretation of the verses, which is not consistent with what the Apostles taught.

Salvation in the Bible is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone and not of works.

This topic belongs on another thread. Shall I start one? You seem to have so many misunderstandings about the Catholic faith. Maybe it would help? Faith is never “alone” but is always accompanied by hope and love. Christ is also never “alone”, as He has chosen to make all who are saved members of His One Body, and therefore, we are members one of another. Although salvation is not earned by our works, neither are the works separated from the faith and grace by which we are saved.

 Water baptism, holy Communion, good works, marriage, joining the church, are not part of salvation.

Actually, all of these are, or may be, a part of salvation. If they are not, then Jesus created things that were irrelevant, which He does not do.

When these are added to faith alone they become works that man does and Eph 2:8-9 tells us that works have no part in our salvation.

This statement reveals two major errors. One is that these things were “added”. In fact, the life of holiness has never been separated from justification before God, until the early 1900’s and the American Fundamentalist movement. For some reason, people felt a need to create a “readers digest” version of the gospel, cutting off elements that were embraced and taught by the Apostles and their successors.

The second error relates to the believer obeying the Commandments of God. When we obey His commandments, we do so by grace, through faith. These are the works that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. These are Hagios Ergos (Good Works), not works of the flesh, as you seem to beleive.

Titus 3:5. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy we are saved.

None of the good works that are wrought in us by grace are the basis of salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith FOR the works. The good works are not separated from salvation. You are trying to “subtract”.

 

[MrS]

How many times does Jesus say in the Gospels that one must do something to attain salvation? What does he tell the rich man? Go, sell all you own, pick up your cross and follow me. You keep on saying that all that is necessary is faith (which in and of itself is a action taken by you) but James says faith without works is dead. So who are you going to go with, Jesus or Paul?

Sadly the variety of protestant interpretations often seen to pit one against the other. That seems to be a common occurrence with our separated brethren… either or.

The Catholic Faith is filled with both/and understanding. Mother & Virgin, God & Man, Faith & Works, and on and on.

No part of the Scriptures will contradict another. Yet the non-Catholics often place one verse on a pedestal and just discount another (as “non-essential” or “just symbolic”, or perhaps misunderstood until a Reformer got it right/convenient for their personal beliefs).

I think the only place in Scripture where we are taught that following Christ is that simple is in Matthew 29.

Being a Catholic is probably one of the toughest roads to follow. I, for one, relish the challenge, the experience, and the promises Christ made to His one Church.

.

 

[ppasa316]

Sure, ok., fine. Let’s go to Scriptures. But before we do, can you assure me that your interpretation of the Scriptures will be infallible? I mean, for you to explain Scripture to me you will have to convince me that you have the absolute, correct, definitive commentary on the verses you choose to discuss in order for me to believe you.

In other words, you will have to convince me that your teachings or oral tradition is absolutely, positively correct. And just remember that when you do give me your explanation of whatever verses you choose to discuss, your explanation will be extra-biblical; translated, not found in the Bible. You will then be setting yourself up as THE infallible magisterial teacher for the rest of us, Protestants included.

But, if you choose to take this route, you will be denying probably the most important dogma of all of Protestantism, that of private judgement.

So, you see, you and the rest of our esteemed non-Catholic Christian brethren posting on these threads have really painted yourselfs into a corner.

Do you understand any of this? Again, I question your epistemology (How do you know what you know?) :hey_bud:

I go by the Word of God. I have said this to you before. I do not use private judgement this would go against what God says in His Word. I also don’t feel like im in a corner lol. I know what i know by the Word of God not by what any church or priest has taught me.