John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[guanophore]

It is not “private judgment” in the biblical sense, to read the Bible and then tell others what you have read, and how you see it. This is where Catholics are very wrong.

It is a private judgement. If one is alone with one’s bible, and one interprets what one is reading, what else can you call that?

Jesus Himself encouraged people to go through this process. But if I tell you where, I will have to endure a litany of accusations regarding “private interpretation.”

Of course we should read and understand the Scriptures, in private and in public. The problems emerge when one arrives at interpretations contradictory to what God has revealed to the Church.

Authority is indeed the issue at at stake here. Roman Catholicism is aggressively pursuing authority over all religions and nations.

With Roman Catholic leadership; there is no such thing as “ecumenism.” Or “unity.” All they are talking about is submission to the Pope.

To the extent that the Pope represents the authority of Christ, yes. It does seem clear that a rebellious attitude is at the root of Protestantism.

Jesus told the Apostles they would be sifted. Then He told Peter “but I have prayed for you (singular) that your faith may not fail.” So, anyone who wants to have the true faith preserved in them better get included in the prayer for Peter.

This kind of thing should never be a problem. It is normal for some to see things differently - it is also normal for them to discuss it, and decipher wherein lies their differences.

I agree that it should never be a problem, but it is. You are absolutely right, it is normal for people to see things differently. That is why, when we get together to decipher the differences, we don’t necessarily arrive at Truth.

This is also why it was essential for Jesus to appoint a Teaching Authority.

Being at a different level of understanding is not wrong - nor can you relegate this kind of thing to just Protestants, and your “denomination” dogma. The same kind of differences occur within Catholic Churches too. How To Interpret The Bible is a lifelong study - and I am glad to belong to a Church where people are accepted, at all their various stages of understanding.

You are correct, being a a different level of understanding is not wrong. Neither is it wrong to need study. However, doing so in departure of the Apostolic Teaching is the road to perdition.

This whole thing about “30,000” denominations is a fine strawman;(as well as grossly unproven and embellished) but it is really only a pretense for the “authority” that Catholics desire.

I think you are not being realistic about the denominations. In addition the Catholic desire for unity is not a pretense. We understand this to be Jesus’ desire for us.

I think that if people realized just how much; and what kind of authority Catholicism really wants - they would definitely accept the “Lifejacket” Protestants give them, before they get to the other side of the Tiber.

Well, we see it differently! Many of us have been on the other side of the Tiber, and have discovered that the “lifejacket” is full of sinking weights.

MacArthur tried to throw out the “Lifejacket” to Catholics in his ministry. I have always appreciated him for his efforts there.

It would be better to drown in the boat with Jesus than to be adrift in a sea of error with such a lifejacket.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

This kind of thing should never be a problem. It is normal for some to see things differently - it is also normal for them to discuss it, and decipher wherein lies their differences. Being at a different level of understanding is not wrong - nor can you relegate this kind of thing to just Protestants, and your “denomination” dogma. The same kind of differences occur within Catholic Churches too. How To Interpret The Bible is a lifelong study - and I am glad to belong to a Church where people are accepted, at all their various stages of understanding.

Go to any Catholic Church, whether it be the Latin, Byzantine, Alexandrian, Maronite, Chaldean, or Syro-Malabar Rite, and ask for a Catechism. They’ll all give you the same book. There are allowances for differing opinions, yes, but not in matters of faith or morals.

This whole thing about “30,000” denominations is a fine strawman;(as well as grossly unproven and embellished) but it is really only a pretense for the “authority” that Catholics desire.

I actually got that number from a Protestant source, a document published by Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary several years ago, at the time the number was something like 25,000 but since new denominations are forming weekly, it isn’t a stretch at all to say 30,000 non-Catholic denominations exist today. Even if the number is closer to, say 30, that’s 29 more than Christ intended.

I think that if people realized just how much; and what kind of authority Catholicism really wants - they would definitely accept the “Lifejacket” Protestants give them, before they get to the other side of the Tiber.

MacArthur tried to throw out the “Lifejacket” to Catholics in his ministry. I have always appreciated him for his efforts there.

Except his “Lifejacket” is made out of misconceptions and lies about Catholicism. I don’t need to be rescued! I chose Catholicism with eyes wide open. One convert said it this way:

“I have come home. I have dropped anchor. I have taken my place in the Church of the apostles, Fathers, confessors, martyrs, bishops, saints, and all the Catholic faithful. I have nothing to ‘protest’.” ~Thomas Howard

 

[Shannon9791]

It is not “private judgment” in the biblical sense, to read the Bible and then tell others what you have read, and how you see it. This is where Catholics are very wrong.

Jesus Himself encouraged people to go through this process. But if I tell you where, I will have to endure a litany of accusations regarding “private interpretation.”

No, please, enlighten us with your wisdom.

 

[MrS]

It is not “private judgment” in the biblical sense, to read the Bible and then tell others what you have read, and how you see it. This is where Catholics are very wrong.

Jesus Himself encouraged people to go through this process. But if I tell you where, I will have to endure a litany of accusations regarding “private interpretation.”

Please give the reference, in context, along with your interpretation. Thank you.

.

 

[Tomster]

It is not “private judgment” in the biblical sense, to read the Bible and then tell others what you have read, and how you see it. This is where Catholics are very wrong.

Jesus Himself encouraged people to go through this process. But if I tell you where, I will have to endure a litany of accusations regarding “private interpretation.”

Please, do tell. And this goes for you too, ppasa. :hey_bud:

 

[Tomster]

God has given us the Holy Spirit to interpret Scripture. Like i said before its not my way its Gods Word. The Bible is pretty easy to understand. I listen to other Godly Men like John MacArthur, My Pastor and read commentaries to make sure that i am not off base. Like the subject of purgatory. So how do you interpret the Scripture. Are you a Berean or do you just agree with everything you hear.

First of all, if the Bible is pretty easy to understand, contrary to what St. Peter said in the Bible by the way, why would you have have to listen to other Godly men and read commentaries to make sure you are not off base? If the Holy Spirit is in fact guiding you in your readings why trust the interpretations of mere mortals?

Secondly, by your own admission, by reading commentaries you are depending on something that is extra-biblical; translated, not in the Bible. So much for Sola Scriptura.

Can you see the contradictions in your position? :hey_bud:

 

[juliamajor]

If private interpretation is correct that means everyone’s version of that interpretation is correct. So JW’s are certainly within their rights to proclaim that Blood transfusions are unacceptable.That allegiance to a nation is wrong, that birthday’s and holidays are wrong .That there is no Trinity etc, etc.So fellow Sola Scripturaites should not consider JW’s in error then because their ideas came out their personal interpretations. I’m sure every one can also say their version is correct because they were all inspired by the Holy Spirit.Hmmmm!Quite a quandary:shrug:

 

[Tomster]

You send me a private message for this. If you were that smart you would have seen that i have already reponded to this message. LOL No More private messages unless you have a topic to speak about with scripture to please. LOL:thumbsup:

And, as I said in the above post, you are going to have to convince me that you can authoritatively and infallibly interpret the Scriptures. Not only that, but you are going to have to show me in Scriptures, you know, the Sola Scriptura thing, specifically, where ppasa has been given this power. Please give me chapter and verse and show me where your name is specifically mentioned in the Bible. Sheeeesh!

There would be no sense in discussing any topic contained in Scripture with you until you meet the above criteria. :hey_bud:

 

[Tomster]

If private interpretation is correct that means everyone’s version of that interpretation is correct. So JW’s are certainly within their rights to proclaim that Blood transfusions are unacceptable.That allegiance to a nation is wrong, that birthday’s and holidays are wrong .That there is no Trinity etc, etc.So fellow Sola Scripturaites should not consider JW’s in error then because their ideas came out their personal interpretations. I’m sure every one can also say their version is correct because they were all inspired by the Holy Spirit.Hmmmm!Quite a quandary:shrug:

Quite a quandary indeed. If our non-Catholic Christian brethren would care to take just a little closer look at their contradictory positions they would be forced to admit that something is amiss in Protestantland.

BTW - This very area of discussion was brought home succinctly last night on “The Journey Home” program with Marcus Grodi and his guest. Enjoyed it very much.

 

[rtconstant]

Nothing can weaken the “concept” of Christianity; it is easy to see how God has always been in control of the affairs of the nations; and of His people.

Authority is indeed the issue at at stake here. Roman Catholicism is aggressively pursuing authority over all religions and nations.

With Roman Catholic leadership; there is no such thing as “ecumenism.” Or “unity.” All they are talking about is submission to the Pope.

As a correction I didn’t say that Christianity was weakened I said the concept of Christendom was weakened. And Christendom was not only weakened but sent to the grave by the formation of nation states and the “Reformation”.

Another correction is that while the Church does work with and recognize as brothers the other denominations outside of the Church, it also recognizes that they are in error, and need to be reconciled to the Body of Christ. It isn’t submission to the See of Peter that we’re concerned about as submission to Christ, His teachings, and His Church that concerns us. Submission to the Body of Christ brings all the other details into line.

 

[MrS]

Here I will repeat post 173, and again wonder why our separated brethren want it both ways.

*If you really believe what you just typed then you must consider getting rid of your Bible, tossing your hymn books, tearing down or selling your gathering place, forgeting about all your fellowship etc etc.

If you really think any of those actions, efforts, works of your choice are forbidden (in the Book of the Catholic Church), then you must listen to your belief, and be saved by Jesus alone.

If you think any of those actions, efforts, works of your choice are helpful (perhaps in growing closer to Jesus, and increasing in grace and holiness, fine… continue.

Just consider that the Catholic Church received many more of those means of “assistance” from Christ Himself. The sacraments, the devotions, the Liturgy, etc are all the things rejected by non-Catholics in their “quest” to replace Christ and the gifts from Christ with Christ alone.

Gives a whole different meaning to the word believe… kind of a pro-choice thing.*

 

[Tomster]

So then I would have to assume that the Holy Spirit speaks just to you. Because there are a whole lot of Protestants with different beliefs than you. Why won’t the Holy Spirit teach them infallibly like he has you?

I don’t think we are going to get an answer to this one, could be wrong mind you, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Our esteemed adversary would have to jump over a lot of wet paint from the corner he has painted himself into.

 

[Shannon9791]

I’m still waiting for all the verses that explicitly say sola scriptura is the way to go.

 

[josie_L]

I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the 30,000 number. Whenever I have heard the figure it is said to include demonimations and independent churches (like some of the mega churches in the South).

Authority is the biggest stumbling block for most protestants, myself included for many years. Especially as Americans, we bristle at the idea of a “supreme leader”. It goes against our democratic ideals.

The RCC has lasted 2000 years despite the failings and frailties of it’s leaders. Despite many years of corrupt pontiffs. That tends to be a strong argument that it is the Church of Christ.

Now, this is a very honest and insightful post, I appreciate it. And yes, you are correct in that the 30 000 refers to denominations as well as independent churches. God bless.

 

[Tomster]

I’m still waiting for all the verses that explicitly say sola scriptura is the way to go.

Me too. But, again, as so many times in the past on these boards, our esteemed brethren say a lot of things, but fall way short of backing it up. I suppose that they are just too comfortable enjoying the warm fuzzies they get reading just a few parts of Holy Writ. :hey_bud:

 

[Shannon9791]

Me too. But, again, as so many times in the past on these boards, our esteemed brethren say a lot of things, but fall way short of backing it up. I suppose that they are just too comfortable enjoying the warm fuzzies they get reading just a few parts of Holy Writ. :hey_bud:

Well, after being told that I must believe everything I hear, I figured those who have knowledge that we don’t would be beating a path to let us all know this great truth, so we can join their side. As one can see, we’re all pretty good at fact finding and debate.

 

[DLClark]

How many times does Jesus say in the Gospels that one must do something to attain salvation? What does he tell the rich man? Go, sell all you own, pick up your cross and follow me. You keep on saying that all that is necessary is faith (which in and of itself is a action taken by you) but James says faith without works is dead. So who are you going to go with, Jesus or Paul?

Not one time. Faith is never considered a work man does when in relationship to salvation.
Show me one verse that says man must do somthing to be saved. Have you read Titus 3:5?

 

[Shannon9791]

Not one time. Faith is never considered a work man does when in relationship to salvation.
Show me one verse that says man must do somthing to be saved. Have you read Titus 3:5?

Are you reading the same Bible I am? Jesus didn’t tell people they had to do things to get to Heaven? Mark 10:17-25 is the story I was referring to where Jesus gives someone a specific order to do things, the last of which is follow me. He also asked him if he followed the commandments. Looks to me like Jesus is telling the man he must do something.
Uhhh, you’re stopping just short of the verse you need to read in Titus. Titus 3:8 says: I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others. Nice try cherry picking verses like that, but really, you’re grasping at straws.

 

[josie_L]

Are you reading the same Bible I am? Jesus didn’t tell people they had to do things to get to Heaven? Mark 10:17-25 is the story I was referring to where Jesus gives someone a specific order to do things, the last of which is follow me. He also asked him if he followed the commandments. Looks to me like Jesus is telling the man he must do something.
Uhhh, you’re stopping just short of the verse you need to read in Titus. Titus 3:8 says: I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others. Nice try cherry picking verses like that, but really, you’re grasping at straws.

Is it my imagination or am I seeing more and more OSAS posters on our forums?

 

[guanophore]

Not one time. Faith is never considered a work man does when in relationship to salvation.
Show me one verse that says man must do somthing to be saved. Have you read Titus 3:5?

Shouldn’t this be on a new thread? Here, I will start one. We haven’t had one in at least a week.