John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[SHW]

The earliest surviving Church use of the word “Catholic” is in Ignatius’ writing.

catholic.com/library/What_Catholic_Means.asp

"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains . Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Our Church was called simply “Catholic” since at least the beginning of the second century. (110 A.D.)

Peter had the authority to “elect” Matthias as a successor to Judas, using lots, in order to fulfill the prophecy which he knew that he must fulfill as head steward, the keeper of the keys. (Matthew 16:17-19) He had “binding and loosing” powers given to him especially by Jesus Christ.

Jesus “called” Judas an apostle so I think it prudent that we do also.

Matthew 10:2-4 “Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.”

Acts 1:24-25 "And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

Paul did not fit the original criteria to be an apostle. God can and does make exceptions to His own rules since He is sovereign. Therefore, God appointed Paul as apostle to the Gentiles. (1 Timothy 2:5-7)

Peter said that an “apostle” held an “office.” This is an office of “stewardship.” (Acts 1:15-21, 1 Corinthians 4:1-3) I think we should not argue with him and Paul.

 

[M0nkey]

There’s early church writers, but just because they wrote extant letters doesn’t make them “fathers” of the church.

Do you consider Abraham our father in the faith, as it is written? Because that is exactly what the Church fathers were. You would do well to learn their Catholicity. Again, you simply show being devoid of history and scripture.

 

[moondweller]

MacArthur did make some good points re “sola scriptura;” and it is good to see you uplifting this essential Christian principle here. This was an excellent post; I enjoyed reading it.

guanophore will soon have an easy out - the 1000 post mark is fast approaching for this thread.

Thank you. The reason the RC hierarchy is so vehemently against the doctrine of sola scriptura is because the Scriptures themselves do not support their claim that (1) Christ made Peter the head of the universal church and the Bishop of Rome is his “successor;” and (2) that all the Apostles appointed “successors” and those “successors” are the Roman Bishops." The former is based completely on the RC interpretation of Matt. 16:18-19, and the latter on what they say is implied (thinly) in various Scripture passages. These two claims form the foundation on which the authority of the RC hierarchy rests, yet they cannot rightfully prove either strictly from Scripture itself.

 

[M0nkey]

Christ made Peter the head of the universal church

Well, do you have leaders or elders in your church?

 

[Lil_Cat]

Funny how no one cared about this subject when the thread was started last year.

Just sayin’

 

[SHW]

Thank you. The reason the RC hierarchy is so vehemently against the doctrine of sola scriptura is because the Scriptures themselves do not support their claim that (1) Christ made Peter the head of the universal church and the Bishop of Rome is his “successor;” and (2) that all the Apostles appointed “successors” and those “successors” are the Roman Bishops." The former is based completely on the RC interpretation of Matt. 16:18-19, and the latter on what they say is implied (thinly) in various Scripture passages. These two claims form the foundation on which the authority of the RC hierarchy rests, yet they cannot rightfully prove either strictly from Scripture itself.

Please show us the Scripture(s) that claim(s) “Scripture Alone” is to be the sole rule of faith and that “believing” that Jesus will save a person is all that is necessary in order to inherit eternal life. I am vehemently against the so-called doctrine of “Sola Scriptura” simply because it is a false doctrine and cannot be supported by Scripture and because it is actually proven to be a false doctrine by using Scripture since Scripture cannot contradict itself.

I can find that Scripture is “helpful” but not that it is “sufficient” in itself.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

“Profitable” means “helpful” or “useful.” Scripture is indeed “helpful” in order to make the man of God “complete.” However, Scripture alone is not enough to make the man of God complete according to Paul. He states that we must obey/keep the traditions that the Apostles taught, whether they were written down in letters or taught orally or shown by example.

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

These traditions include partaking in the Holy Eucharist as mandated by Christ.

John 6:53 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.”

1 Corinthians 10:15-17 “I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.”

1 Corinthians 11:23-30 “23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me. 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.”

Scripture alone is not enough to save a person. Jesus states that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood worthily in order to have life in us. His Flesh and Blood which we are to eat are not symbolic.

He states that His Flesh is real food and His Blood is real drink.

John 6:55 “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”

Paschal Lambs must be literally eaten. Sounds bizarre, but then so is the fact that God decided to be born of a human woman and become Man in order to redeem mankind by an excruciatingly painful death on a cross which is the punishment for criminals.

It’s time to take Paul at his word and believe in all the traditions that they taught, whether by word through preaching, by the written word through epistles, or by imitation of their actions or instructions during the Mass which was indeed passed down throughout the ages in the Church through apostolic succession as shown by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Many persons like to claim that presbyters were not priests in order to fit their own private doctrines but the history of the Church shows otherwise. The “laying on of hands” for the priesthood is documented in Scripture and in early church writings plus the 2000 years of unbroken teaching tradition of Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Paul states clearly that “we have an altar” that no Jew has a right to eat from. Hebrews 13:10 “We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.”

What is an altar used for? Sacrifice. This is why it is called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The priests continually offer up (re-present) Jesus’ one-time Sacrifice to His Father in heaven in the Mass as Jesus commanded at His Last Supper. [Luke 22:19-20, Matthew 26:28]

Mankind keeps sinning and these sins must continually be atoned for until Jesus returns at His Second Coming and halts all corruption. This Perfect Sacrifice continues to remit sins as often as it is re-offered/re-presented to our Father in heaven. The Mass fulfills Malachi’s prophecy. Malachi 1:11 “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.”

http://members.cox.net/studyhisword/HolyMass.pdf

Scripture is indeed “helpful” in order for me to show you that your “doctrine” of “Sola Scriptura” is in error.

 

[SHW]

It is a fallacy to believe that everything must be explicitly expressed in Scripture in order to make it relevant or true.

There is no mention of the Feast of Dedication in the OT as a precedent, but observance of this feast is made known in John 10:22. It is thought to be the feast which was developed in order to celebrate the battle to retake the temple and the re-dedication of this temple in Jerusalem in 167 B.C. It is said that the Maccabees held out for eight days with only enough lamp oil for one day in their battle against the Seleucid Empire. The lamp miraculously remained lit for the entire eight days. Of course, Protestants do not have the Books of Maccabees in their Bibles but Jesus and the other Apostles celebrated this feast. We know it as Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights.

The Talmud was originally oral also. Paul is correct when he states that we must stand fast and hold the traditions which he taught whether by word (oral tradition) or by letter (written tradition) or by example through Apostolic succession in the laying on of hands, the Mass, sacraments, etc.

These traditions that Paul and the other Apostles taught are the commandments of the Lord. [1 Corinthians 14:37, 1 Thessalonians 4:2]

To say that everything relevant to the Christian faith must be explicitly documented in the Bible is to go against Scripture itself. Scripture shows examples which contradict this false belief.

The Bible contains the things that God desired it to contain. Nothing more, nothing less. He built a Church to teach the faith and the Bible is a “tool” authorized by the Church to be used by the Church in order to fulfill Jesus’ mission of making disciples of all nations. [Matthew 28:18-20]

 

[moondweller]

Well, do you have leaders or elders in your church?

Sure do, just like the churches in the first century. And just like them NONE claim infallibility or that they’re direct successors of the Apostles. All teach, according to the Scriptures, that the risen Christ alone is Head of the church He’s presently building weather in heaven or on earth. And all understand that they’re to teach and preach the sound doctrine preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures; and they are not to go beyond what is written. And at the core of their teaching is the Pauline doctrine of:Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."They dare not deviate from this core, Biblical truth.

 

[moondweller]

Please show us the Scripture(s) that claim(s) “Scripture Alone” is to be the sole rule of faith

Only the Scriptures are called “thepneustos” (God-breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

and that “believing” that Jesus will save a person is all that is necessary in order to inherit eternal life.

Scripture records the Words of Christ who stated that those who believe in Him HAVE eternal life. That they, in fact, do not come into judgment but have passed out of death in life" (Jn. 3;14-18; 5:24).

I am vehemently against the so-called doctrine of “Sola Scriptura” simply because it is a false doctrine and cannot be supported by Scripture and because it is actually proven to be a false doctrine by using Scripture since Scripture cannot contradict itself.

Since Moses God has preserved His Word in this world by theopneustos Scripture.

Christ Himself quoted from the Scriptures against Satan. He told the religious leaders of His day that they did not know the power of God or the Scriptures, and corrected their “traditions” by the Scriptures. And those who were His, after His bodily resurrection He took them through the Scriptures and showed them all that was written of Him there concerning His suffering and death for salvation and the forgiveness of sins. And then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures (Lk. 24:25-27; 45). Then He said to them:Luke 24:46-47 “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Scripture alone is not enough to save a person.

God is the One who saves those who believe the gospel message of Jesus Christ preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures.

Jesus states that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood worthily in order to have life in us. His Flesh and Blood which we are to eat are not symbolic.
He states that His Flesh is real food and His Blood is real drink.

But before He spoke that He said:John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."And He clarifies what He said about eating His flesh and drinking His blood by saying:John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

 

[M0nkey]

Sure do, just like the churches in the first century. And just like them NONE claim infallibility or that they’re direct successors of the Apostles.

How are your leaders not claiming succession when the apostles where the leaders of the early Church? Not to mention, if they teach anything, are they not claiming a certain level of infallibility? How can you trust them then?

 

[M0nkey]

He told the religious leaders of His day that they did not know the power of God or the Scriptures, and corrected their “traditions” by the Scriptures.

That almost sounds heretical. Jesus IS the scriptures. The so called “traditions” were man-made, kind of whiffs of doctrine to fit a certain passage that’s taken out of context (i.e., sola fide), and He taught by His own authority not that of the scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

It is a fallacy to believe that everything must be explicitly expressed in Scripture in order to make it relevant or true.

Why? Since Moses God has preserved His Word in this world in theopneustos Scripture.

There is no mention of the Feast of Dedication in the OT as a precedent, but observance of this feast is made known in John 10:22. It is thought to be the feast which was developed in order to celebrate the battle to retake the temple and the re-dedication of this temple in Jerusalem in 167 B.C. It is said that the Maccabees held out for eight days with only enough lamp oil for one day in their battle against the Seleucid Empire. The lamp miraculously remained lit for the entire eight days. Of course, Protestants do not have the Books of Maccabees in their Bibles but Jesus and the other Apostles celebrated this feast. We know it as Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights.

So? What’s your point? That feast wasn’t celebrated according to the Law and Jesus said in the backdrop of that celebration:“I am the Light of the world” (Jn. 8:12)

The Talmud was originally oral also.

You’re confusing the Talmud with the Tanach. The Talmud is not thepneustos.

Paul is correct when he states that we must stand fast and hold the traditions which he taught whether by word (oral tradition) or by letter (written tradition) or by example through Apostolic succession in the laying on of hands, the Mass, sacraments, etc.

Here’s what Paul said and which was preserved for us in theopneustos Scripture:2 Thess 2:15 "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or by letter from us."Paul is not stating here that what they were taught by word was different from that which was taught in writing. Nor does he state anything about “Apostolic succession,” the “Mass,” or “sacraments.”

Do you now see the infinite value of having it preserved for us in theopneustos Scripture? We can readily know if anyone adds to what was written.

The Bible contains the things that God desired it to contain. Nothing more, nothing less.

That’s right: Nothing “more.”

He built a Church to teach the faith and the Bible is a “tool” authorized by the Church to be used by the Church in order to fulfill Jesus’ mission of making disciples of all nations. [Matthew 28:18-20]

Actually He’s presently building His church upon the foundation of the Apostles, He being the corner stone, and their teachings are preserved for us in theopneustos Scripture. It’s the gospel of Jesus Christ that’s preserved in theopneustos Scripture that is to be preached to the world and believed for salvation: the forgiveness of sins and the gift of eternal life. It’s only by the authority of God’s Word preserved in theopneustos Scripture that men can preach and teach what God has said concerning His Son.

 

[pete_29]

Sure do, just like the churches in the first century. And just like them NONE claim infallibility or that they’re direct successors of the Apostles. All teach, according to the Scriptures, that the risen Christ alone is Head of the church He’s presently building weather in heaven or on earth. And all understand that they’re to teach and preach the sound doctrine preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures; and they are not to go beyond what is written. And at the core of their teaching is the Pauline doctrine of:Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."They dare not deviate from this core, Biblical truth.

Infallibly explain to me " Biblical Truth".

 

[moondweller]

How are your leaders not claiming succession when the apostles where the leaders of the early Church?

Because the church is being built on the foundation of the Apostles. A foundation is laid only once. They teach only on what has been taught and preserved in the theopneustos Scriptures.

Not to mention, if they teach anything, are they not claiming a certain level of infallibility?

No. There’s no such thing as levels of infallibility.

How can you trust them then?

I don’t blindly trust them (Acts 17:11). I too have the Scriptures. I too study them.

 

[moondweller]

That almost sounds heretical. Jesus IS the scriptures.

No He’s not. His teachings are preserved in theopneustos Scriptures. He resides in heaven, we have His Words (and the others) preserved for us here on earth in theopneustos Scripture.

 

[moondweller]

Infallibly explain to me " Biblical Truth".

Truth according to God’s Word. Since the Scriptures are theopneustos, they’re God’s Word.John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.”

2 Tim 2:15 “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”

 

[pete_29]

Truth according to God’s Word. Since the Scriptures are theopneustos, they’re God’s Word.John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.”

2 Tim 2:15 “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”

But is your word truth. Are you accurately handling the word of truth? Are you infallible?

 

[SHW]

Only the Scriptures are called “thepneustos” (God-breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

Every Word that Jesus spoke is God-breathed because He is God, whether is was written down or passed down orally through the Church as in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word (oral) or our epistle (letter).”

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

So, you are telling us that Paul is lying when he states that we must believe both written and oral traditions plus any other traditions that he delivered to them by example?

Scripture records the Words of Christ who stated that those who believe in Him HAVE eternal life. That they, in fact, do not come into judgment but have passed out of death in life" (Jn. 3;14-18; 5:24).Since Moses God has preserved His Word in this world by theopneustos Scripture.

To “believe in” Him also means to be in obedience to Him. Only those who truly believe in Him (those who obey His commandments and work righteousness) do not come into judgment.

Not everything that the Jews practiced was recorded in the Old Testament. Exactly how were their worship rites conducted? This was passed down by tradition with only a few references mentioned in Scripture. Yet, worship was extremely important and so was passed down from Levites/Rabbis to the next generations by Tradition.

Those who fall away from the faith through disobedience which is also unbelief sever themselves from the Vine who is Christ and they are no longer justified unless they repent and confess.

Galatians 5:4 “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”

If you sin, you (the branch) cut yourself off from the Vine Christ, and you are no longer saved. Branches which are severed from the Vine are thrown into hell. You cannot sever yourself from Christ unless you were first attached (saved/justified) to Christ. You cannot fall away from grace unless you first had sanctifying grace (salvation/justification). So, you were first saved/justified, but then lost salvation/justification through sin.

John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

We must “remain in” or “abide in” Christ until death in order to inherit eternal life. This is what “believing in” Christ means. To “believe in” Him means that we must also “obey Him.” They cannot be separated. We must imitate Christ until death in order to be counted worthy of eternal life.

“Faith alone” is not true and Catholics do not believe in this falsehood.

Christ Himself quoted from the Scriptures against Satan. He told the religious leaders of His day that they did not know the power of God or the Scriptures, and corrected their “traditions” by the Scriptures. And those who were His, after His bodily resurrection He took them through the Scriptures and showed them all that was written of Him there concerning His suffering and death for salvation and the forgiveness of sins. And then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures (Lk. 24:25-27; 45). Then He said to them:Luke 24:46-47 “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Yes, Scripture is helpful to show how the Old Testament is fulfilled in the New Testament. This is what Paul states in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

You still have not shown that Scripture claims to be the sole rule of faith. Paul claims that Scripture is a “helpful or useful” tool.

Persons really are naive when they believe that everything about “God” can be contained in one small book.

John 21:25 “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.”

So, are you trying to convince us that all the things that Jesus also taught that are not written in this one small book are not important? I believe in the Words/commands of God that were passed down orally and they are called ORAL TRADITIONS which is what Paul also calls them.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

To be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

God is the One who saves those who believe the gospel message of Jesus Christ preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures.But before He spoke that He said:John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."And He clarifies what He said about eating His flesh and drinking His blood by saying:John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

Yes, it is the Spirit who gives life. This Spirit is God. Our flesh is nothing/worthless unless we have the Spirit of God giving our flesh life. And He gives us this eternal life when we literally eat His Flesh and drink His Blood.

The reason that many disciples left Him is because they refused to believe that they must literally eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. He meant it literally and they knew that He meant it literally.

John 6:52 "The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

Did Jesus explain to them that they did not really have to eat His flesh? No. He restated His teaching more forcefully.

John 6:53 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.”

Plain speaking. He meant it literally and this disgusted them.

John 6:54-57 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”

What did some of the Jews do then? They left Him and followed Him no more.

John 6:60-66 "Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

Did Jesus call them back and explain, “You do not have to literally eat my Flesh and drink my Blood, I only meant this symbolically?” No, He did not. He meant it literally. Paschal lambs must be eaten. Jesus is the Paschal Lamb. He is the Lamb of God. Why God chose to become Food for us is hard to understand, but it is true.

It really does not matter whether you, Moondweller, believe in this truth or not. Truth is truth even if persons such as yourself do not believe it. But, it saddens our Lord when people refuse to believe the truth. This is why He asked His other disciples:

John 6:67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve."

Here, Peter, the leader of the Apostles, the keeper of the keys, the chief steward, is speaking for the whole group again. Must be a pattern here, huh?