John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[BRB1]

after we are justified by Baptism, then we have hope of eternal life. Hope is not something that is a sure thing. [Titus 3:7]

We must remain in God’s kindness/grace in order to actually inherit eternal life when we die.

Why is it hard for a rich man to enter heaven? Because he does not love his neighbor as himself. Unless he shares, he will be cast into hell. [Luke 3:10-11, 1 Timothy 6:9]
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Md … consider what SHW has proposed. Tell us why Christ told this parable on the Rich Man’s situation ? … if the reason be not as SHW states.

Alternative reasons for you to choose from:

1. … God doesn’t like the rich man as much as a poor man
   2)… A rich man’s baptism isn’t as efficacious
2. … Rich men reject spiritual rebirth
3. … Rich men are only Catholic …
4. … Rich men are more law abiding [in Jewish legalite style, circ, dietary laws,etc]

Seriously, if you can come up with a more lucid explanation than SHW … please share your special insights.

If you can’t … you thereby convinced us [and U-self] that OSAS is a bogus belief that you still cling so tenaciously to.

 

[BRB1]

Yes, I have heard this arguement many times from Reformed posters. However, it is erroneous. Apostasy cannot “beget apostates”. This is a fantasy. The falling away from the faith (apostasy) renders a person unfit to preach the true gospel. Those that preach a false gospel do not engender apostasy, as they cannot. They propagate heresy, but no one who has failed to receive the true gospel can rightfully be called “apostate”. One has to have something, before one can fall away from it. On the contrary, apostasy creates heresy…

Dead on

Md … always trust the wisdom of G-4 !!! He’s your mentor, better than John Mac.

 

[Protestant101]

Dead on

Md … always trust the wisdom of G-4 !!! He’s your mentor, better than John Mac.

I will trust the wisdom of Jesus, thankyou.

 

[moondweller]

Md … consider what SHW has proposed. Tell us why Christ told this parable on the Rich Man’s situation ? … if the reason be not as SHW states.

Alternative reasons for you to choose from:

1. … God doesn’t like the rich man as much as a poor man
   2)… A rich man’s baptism isn’t as efficacious
2. … Rich men reject spiritual rebirth
3. … Rich men are only Catholic …
4. … Rich men are more law abiding [in Jewish legalite style, circ, dietary laws,etc]

Seriously, if you can come up with a more lucid explanation than SHW … please share your special insights.

If you can’t … you thereby convinced us [and U-self] that OSAS is a bogus belief that you still cling so tenaciously to.

If you had a memory you’d recall I went over this passage several times when we were playing “baseball.” You, like the rich man, BRB, still think you can be saved by your own goodness and Law keeping. You’ll find out, one way or another (hoping it was not too late for him), that the Scriptures have shut you up under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to you if you’d only believe (Gal. 3:22). It’s high time for you to accept the fact that the purpose of the Law, which included the 10 Cs, was given to lead the one under it to Christ, so that when He arrived he might be “justified by FAITH.” That’s faith alone, my friend (Gal. 3:23-24). You, being born after the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Christ, and having been never under the Law, certainly have no excuse.

As for mentors, both you and G-4 should really consider the Apostle Paul. In his theopneustos writings you’ll discover the true gospel of Jesus Christ according to divine GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through faith alone. He’ll lead you to discover with unleashed joy the true meaning of such great Biblical words as redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, identification, regeneration, and the true believer’s guaranteed glorification with Christ. In the end you’ll worship God for what He has DONE, not hope to be accepted by what you have done. That was the Galatian error Paul tried to correct by his letter.

 

[guanophore]

Now, you were talking about including all that the New Testament teaches on "being saved;" yet in your statements above you include only one of the three tenses that the Bible assures us of.  1) "saved"  2) "being saved"  3) "shall be saved"

This is an excellent point. When looking at any one passage, one must be mindful of all the others. For Catholics, we must also be mindful of what the Apsotles believed and taught which is contained in the Church.

 Paul does not consider it "immature thinking" if one is assured, by God's Word, of their salvation. :thumbsup:

Really? What type of thinking do you think he considered “mature”? I don’t see anything in the passage about “assurance” Anytime this term is found in scripture it is always found in the context of faith, or hope.

 Bible writers, however, are unanimous in condemning those who think that because they are saved; they can do as they please.  I think that Catholics would have to agree that it does not work this way.

Yes, because we consider that we enter into salvation at baptism, and that it is like a river, and it is possible to get out of the river and walk away.

 

[guanophore]

I will trust the wisdom of Jesus, thankyou.

This is wise.

And Jesus does teach that those who are in error cannot teach someone else correctly.

Matt 15:14-15
14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

Matt 7:18-20
18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

And for good measure:

James 3:11
11 Does a spring pour forth from the same opening fresh water and brackish?

An apostate cannot engender another apostate, because an apostate is not able to bear good fruit, or give guidance that is not 'blind". Apostates bring forth only “brackish” water (heresy).

 

[guanophore]

You, like the rich man, still think you can be saved by your own goodness and Law keeping.

What makes you think the rich man believed this? I don’t see anything in the passage that indicates such a thought. What makes you think BRB believes this?

You’ll find out, one way or another (hoping it was not too late for him), that the Scriptures have shut you up under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to you if you’d only believe (Gal. 3:22).

The Scripture does not “shut” anyone up “under sin”.

It’s high time for you to accept the fact that the purpose of the Law, which included the 10 Cs, was given to lead the one under it to Christ, so that when He arrived he might be “justified by FAITH.”

This is Catholic teaching. That is why it is in scripture! The entire NT is Catholic. Nothing was included in it that is not Catholic. I think where we differ is that Catholics have received the Apostolic Teaching of Jesus that we are able to keep His commandments by grace, through faith.

 That's faith *alone*, my friend (Gal. 3:23-24).

Faith is never alone, Moon. 1 Cor 13:12-13
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Faith is always accompanied by the love and hope that are produced by grace. Have you never wondered why, if “faith alone” is so important, why there is only one place in scripture where these are found together, and it does not indicate what you intend? Don’t you ever wonder why Paul says that the greatest is love?

  As for mentors, both you and G-4 should really consider the Apostle Paul.  In his *theopneustos* writings you'll discover the true gospel of Jesus Christ

This is true, we do discover the true gospel there, but not only there. We are not “Paulists” as our separated Reformed brethren have become. Our understanding of the true gospel, not being limited to Paul’s writings, is found throughout the NT.

Heb 3:14-15
14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end,

We also find “if” (conditional phrases) in the writings of Paul, but when one reads Paul without the Apostolic perspective, one does not usually “see” them.

   In the end you'll worship God for what He has DONE, not hope to be accepted by what you have done.

Such a statement reflects a misunderstanding of the Catholic conception of faith and works. You see, The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast. This is in Scripture because all of the NT represents Catholic faith. The Catholic Church teaches that saving faith is faith that works, and faith that is always accompanied by love, and hope. It is faith that is obedient, and fruitbearing. What we “do” reflects the quality of our faith.

 

[moondweller]

The Scripture does not “shut” anyone up “under sin”.

Gal 3:22 “But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given (i.e., gifted) to those who believe” (now do you see the authority of Scripture, G-4?)

You say the Scripture has shut up no one under sin, but Paul says the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin. For what purpose? That the promise (eternal life) might be gifted to those who believe in Jesus Christ - His work, not their own.

1 John 2:25 "This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."All in accordance with the words of Jesus:John 3:14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

 

[moondweller]

Apostasy cannot “beget apostates”. This is a fantasy. The falling away from the faith (apostasy) renders a person unfit to preach the true gospel. Those that preach a false gospel do not engender apostasy, as they cannot. They propagate heresy, but no one who has failed to receive the true gospel can rightfully be called “apostate”.

Heretical teachings certainly pave the road to apostasy. When fully embraced by church leadership and taught, apostasy sets in. That apostasy then produces apostates. Apostates use all the Christian terminology but have not entered into the true Christian faith as revealed to us and preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures. Consequently, one raised in that church must look outside of it for the gospel.

 

[M0nkey]

Bible writers, however, are unanimous in condemning those who think that because they are saved; they can do as they please. I think that Catholics would have to agree that it does not work this way.

“Being saved”, “saved”, and “will be saved” all mean the same thing. One that is in a state of grace is in the process of “being saved”. However, that does not mean the gift of final perseverance.

 

[SHW]

Now, you were talking about including all that the New Testament teaches on “being saved;” yet in your statements above you include only one of the three tenses that the Bible assures us of. 1) “saved” 2) “being saved” 3) “shall be saved” Paul does not consider it “immature thinking” if one is assured, by God’s Word, of their salvation. Bible writers, however, are unanimous in condemning those who think that because they are saved; they can do as they please. I think that Catholics would have to agree that it does not work this way.

I’ve linked Scripture notations] to Biblegateway.com.

I agree that there are 3 “tenses” concerning “salvation” found in the Bible.

First we receive salvation by faith and baptism Mark 16:16] and the Holy Spirit moves into our temples/souls/hearts and resides there Galatians 3:2]. It is God Who sanctifies us/justifies us/saves us. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Romans 2:15-16]

I have been saved. 2 Cor. 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” Titus 3:5]

I am being saved now. 1 Cor.15:2 “by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.”

I will be saved in the future. Rom 5:9 “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.”

We are “assured” of salvation only if we remain/abide in Christ until death.

Is there a “guarantee” of our inheritance to eternal life? Yes! It is the Holy Spirit living within/abiding in our temples/hearts/souls at our deaths.

2 Corinthians 5:5 “Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.” 2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14]

However, the Holy Spirit cannot abide/remain in a sinful temple/soul/heart. What if we sin mortal sins and the Holy Spirit no longer lives/abides within our souls?

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.” 1 Corinthians 6:19]

If we defile our “temples” with mortal sins (sins that cause the death of our souls) [John 8:51], then the Holy Spirit leaves us, and Jesus will not “know” us on Judgment Day. Jesus will only know/recognize those persons who have the Holy Spirit abiding within them at their deaths. If the Holy Spirit is not abiding/living within their souls at their deaths, then God destroys them (His wrath casts them into hell for eternity). [Romans 2:7-8]

Matthew 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

What does “practice lawlessness” mean? It means “commit sin.”

1 John 3:4 “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

2 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

Our inheritance to eternal life is lost when we disqualify ourselves by sin.
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Salvation is a life-long process, not a one-time event.** We must endure to the end of our lives in God’s grace in order to be saved. [Matthew 10:22, Matthew 13:21, Matthew 24:13, 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10, 2 Timothy 2:12]](Matthew 10:22, Matthew 13:21, Matthew 24:13, 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10, 2 Timothy 2:12 NKJV - And you will be hated by all for My - Bible Gateway)

If we deny Christ by our sinful works, then we will not be saved. [Titus 1:16, Revelation 2:13]](Titus 1:16, Revelation 2:13 NKJV - They profess to know God, but in works - Bible Gateway)

Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands Matt. 6:1-21, 1 Cor. 3:8] and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey Matt. 25:34-40, Rom. 2:6-7, Gal. 6:6-10, James 1:12]. But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift Rom. 5:5, Phil. 2:13]. This is the real biblical plan of salvation.

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

 

[SHW]

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

“Believes Him” is the key here. To “believe Him” means to also “obey Him.” [Deuteronomy 9:23, Romans 10:16]

2 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.”

If persons are indeed saved “once and for all” as you continue to preach, then Paul would never have commanded “them” to “examine yourselves” and “test yourselves” to determine whether they are still “in the faith.”

If persons who are saved by grace through faith cannot possibly lose their eternal security/salvation, then this would have been a stupid command. 1 Corinthians 14:37]

James 1:21-22 “Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”

Persons must obey God’s commandments if they desire to inherit eternal life after they have first/initially been saved by grace through faith “with the washing of water by the word (Baptism)” Ephesians 5:26.

**Jude 1:20-23 “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.”
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Matthew 19:16-17 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

God is good. He is perfect. We must strive to become like Him. 2 Corinthians 7:1]

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Revelation 14:12** “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
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Revelation 3:1-3** “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name (Christian) that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.”

If they do not repent, then the wrath of God will come upon them suddenly when they least expect it.

Ephesians 5:6 “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

OSAS or Eternal Security is a false doctrine.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who participated.

God bless-

Rachel