John Martignoni's new tract on Sola Scriptura

[pablope]

1. Are you deciding what part of tradition takes precedence?

4. I admire your piety, but there is no Mass in the Bible, the Bible is in the Mass.

The mass came first before there was any Bible.

Luke:

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

From Acts 2:

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

The Last Supper was an important predecessor of the Mass,

This is considered the first mass by 2000 yrs of Christendom by the CC and Orthodox.
Another name for the mass is the breaking of the bread.

 

[Church_Militant]

1. There were communities in Rome, Ephesus, Corinth and many more, which saw themselves as part of the body of Christ, but could not yet be called the Catholic Church except in the broadest of terms. It is apparent that there was not uniformity in the style or worship until the Middle Ages, and even then, various rites in unity with Rome preserved (and to this day preserve) differences.

That’s not historically accurate at all. Documents like The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans , The Martyrdom of Polycarp , and DIDACHE: Teaching of the Twelve Apostles all show that the early church was indeed Catholic, and even more so when you look to see What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?

1. I admire your piety, but there is no Mass in the Bible, the Bible is in the Mass.

This is also dead wrong. I suggest that any one who is really interested invest in Dr. Edward Sri’s excellent book A Biblical Walk Through the Mass
d24fvsfc6m7i1u.cloudfront.net/spree/products/83/product/BIBLICAL-BOOK_300.jpg?1340714173

 

[pablope]

Galatians 2: 11
And when Cephas [Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he clearly was wrong. 12For, until some people came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to draw back and separated himself, because he was afraid of the circumcised. 13And the rest of the Jews* [also] acted hypocritically along with him, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14But when I saw that they were not on the right road in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of all,m “If you, though a Jew, are living like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”*

Hi, REvDon…so what about this passage? What is your issue with it?

Just so you know, Paul is not the last one to castigate a pope for a moral failing on his part.

Catherine of Sienna did this to two popes:ewtn.com/library/mary/catsiena.htm

Catherine wore herself out trying to heal this terrible breach in Christian unity and to obtain for Urban the obedience due to the legitimate head. Letter after letter was dispatched to the princes and leaders of Europe. To Urban himself she wrote to warn him to control his harsh and arrogant temper. This was the second pope she had counseled, chided, even commanded. Far from resenting reproof, Urban summoned her to Rome that he might profit by her advice. Reluctantly she left Siena to live in the Holy City. She had achieved a remarkable position for a woman of her time. On various occasions at Siena, Avignon, and Genoa, learned theologians had questioned her and had been humbled by the wisdom of her replies.

 

[RevDon]

The mass came first before there was any Bible.

Luke:

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

From Acts 2:

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

This is considered the first mass by 2000 yrs of Christendom by the CC and Orthodox.
Another name for the mass is the breaking of the bread.

I would not deny that, following the example of Jesus, early Christians broke bread together. Nor would I deny that from this practice developed what came to be called the Mass. Also, following long-established Jewish customs, at those gatherings were the reading of Scripture, the singing of “psalms and inspired songs.” And yes, those practices came before any of the New Testament scriptures, even the earliest Pauline writings. I just don’t think that it had a form that could rightly be called the Mass at that early date. If you are willing to concede major differences in form, then I’ll concede your point that the Mass is foundational to Christian identity.
The statement, however was about “the Bible,” which, of course, includes the Hebrew scriptures attesting to the Passover, which was also a breaking of bread.

 

[paul_c]

I would not deny that, following the example of Jesus, early Christians broke bread together. Nor would I deny that from this practice developed what came to be called the Mass. Also, following long-established Jewish customs, at those gatherings were the reading of Scripture, the singing of “psalms and inspired songs.” And yes, those practices came before any of the New Testament scriptures, even the earliest Pauline writings. I just don’t think that it had a form that could rightly be called the Mass at that early date. If you are willing to concede major differences in form, then I’ll concede your point that the Mass is foundational to Christian identity.
The statement, however was about “the Bible,” which, of course, includes the Hebrew scriptures attesting to the Passover, which was also a breaking of bread.

To be specific, the real presence of Jesus in the eucharist is foundational to Christian identity. The words used in the consecration remain unchanged from the last supper to today.

 

[RevDon]

That’s not historically accurate at all. Documents like The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans , The Martyrdom of Polycarp , and DIDACHE: Teaching of the Twelve Apostles all show that the early church was indeed Catholic, and even more so when you look to see What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?
This is also dead wrong. I suggest that any one who is really interested invest in Dr. Edward Sri’s excellent book A Biblical Walk Through the Mass
d24fvsfc6m7i1u.cloudfront.net/spree/products/83/product/BIBLICAL-BOOK_300.jpg?1340714173

The documents you quote all suggest variations and differences as does Hyppolytus. I fear we have strayed d from the initial point of this string.

 

[pablope]

I would not deny that, following the example of Jesus, early Christians broke bread together. Nor would I deny that from this practice developed what came to be called the Mass. Also, following long-established Jewish customs, at those gatherings were the reading of Scripture, the singing of “psalms and inspired songs.” And yes, those practices came before any of the New Testament scriptures, even the earliest Pauline writings.

Here is a book I would suggest…Brant Pitre’s jesus and the jewish roots of the Eucharist…amazon.com/Jesus-Jewish-Roots-Eucharist-Unlocking/dp/0385531842

I just don’t think that it had a form that could rightly be called the Mass at that early date. If you are willing to concede major differences in form, then I’ll concede your point that the Mass is foundational to Christian identity.
The statement, however was about “the Bible,” which, of course, includes the Hebrew scriptures attesting to the Passover, which was also a breaking of bread.

 

[zz912]

1. Are you deciding what part of tradition takes precedence?
2. Rabbinic Judaism recognizes the 24 books of the Masoretic Text, commonly called the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible, as authoritative. Evidence suggests that the process of canonization occurred between 200 BCE and 200 CE. A popular former theory is that the Torah was canonized c. 400 BCE, the Prophets c. 200 BCE, and the Writings c. 100 CE, perhaps at a hypothetical Council of Jamnia, but this position is increasingly rejected by modern scholars. Never the less, there was a canon of what we have come to call the Old Testament that pre-dated the New Testament, which frequently quotes from it.
3. There were communities in Rome, Ephesus, Corinth and many more, which saw themselves as part of the body of Christ, but could not yet be called the Catholic Church except in the broadest of terms. It is apparent that there was not uniformity in the style or worship until the Middle Ages, and even then, various rites in unity with Rome preserved (and to this day preserve) differences.
4. I admire your piety, but there is no Mass in the Bible, the Bible is in the Mass. The Last Supper was an important predecessor of the Mass, and Christian meals attested to in epistles (however troublesome these might have been) suggest that food and worship were linked. The Bible is a guide for much more than Mass attendance. As an example, in Luke’s Gospel, over and over again the question is asked and answered, “What must I do?” Never is the answer “go to Mass.” In fact, though Jesus attended and participated in synagogue worship, he seems not to think much of corporate public worship. In Luke (22) he doesn’t even say, “Do this in memory of me.” I don’t want to seem like I disapprove of Mass, but there’s a whole lot more to being a follower of Jesus. Mass is one place where we can learn it and be fired up to do it.
   There are variations among the texts found in manuscripts of the various books of the Bible that we possess (and from which translators of modern Bibles must choose). The Jerusalem Bible is one excellent source that shows some of those variations. At their earliest, these are second century manuscripts. So today’s Bibles are subject to the choices made by those translators. This is not to say that they are false texts, or erroneous texts. I think we have to give some credence to the idea that God wishes that people of our day benefit from Scripture and that the Holy Spirit is still active in providing us with revelation through the work of these translators.

1. No, Sacred Tradition was handed on by Jesus to the Apostles, who have handed it on to their successors, who have transmitted it down through the ages through the bishops. There is also tradition, which is not Sacred Tradition. And no, I am not declaring which is which, the Church has declared Sacred Tradition for 2,000 years.
2. This is just false. There was NOT a declared and universally accepted canon, because several different groups accepted different books as canon, as you yourself noted. Unless your Bible contains 51 books, you yourself reject the authority of the Rabbinic Jews to declare 24 books of the OT as canon. There were others who declared only the Torah as canon, and others who declared the Septuagint as canon. Christ’s Church ended the confusion and declared 46 OT books and 27 NT books as Sacred Scripture.
3. Not true at all. Most of the epistles of Paul were directed to these parishes to correct their errors and bring their beliefs and worship in line with the rest of the Church. And why does the writing of Justin Martyr describing the Mass in the early 100’s sound almost exactly like Mass today? You’ve been given faulty information.
4. You need to re-read your NT. First, the Last Supper was the first Mass. Second, we are specifically commanded to remain in the Church, to be certain to always worship together, and to listen to the Church.

As to the variations, I have seen many of the “variations”, and they are very minor disagreements of words used in various verses. None relate to difference of content. It seems you work very hard to undermine basic beliefs simply so you don’t have to admit the Catholic Church is right on even one point. Your positions simply don’t line up at all with reality.

 

[zz912]

I just don’t think that it had a form that could rightly be called the Mass at that early date. If you are willing to concede major differences in form, then I’ll concede your point that the Mass is foundational to Christian identity.

St. Justin Martyr wrote in the 100’s. And he was describing what had been taught to his generation of Christians from the prior generations. Sounds like the Mass to me…

*Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.*

 

[RevDon]

1. No, Sacred Tradition was handed on by Jesus to the Apostles, who have handed it on to their successors, who have transmitted it down through the ages through the bishops. There is also tradition, which is not Sacred Tradition. And no, I am not declaring which is which, the Church has declared Sacred Tradition for 2,000 years.
2. This is just false. There was NOT a declared and universally accepted canon, because several different groups accepted different books as canon, as you yourself noted. Unless your Bible contains 51 books, you yourself reject the authority of the Rabbinic Jews to declare 24 books of the OT as canon. There were others who declared only the Torah as canon, and others who declared the Septuagint as canon. Christ’s Church ended the confusion and declared 46 OT books and 27 NT books as Sacred Scripture.
3. Not true at all. Most of the epistles of Paul were directed to these parishes to correct their errors and bring their beliefs and worship in line with the rest of the Church. And why does the writing of Justin Martyr describing the Mass in the early 100’s sound almost exactly like Mass today? You’ve been given faulty information.
4. You need to re-read your NT. First, the Last Supper was the first Mass. Second, we are specifically commanded to remain in the Church, to be certain to always worship together, and to listen to the Church.

As to the variations, I have seen many of the “variations”, and they are very minor disagreements of words used in various verses. None relate to difference of content. It seems you work very hard to undermine basic beliefs simply so you don’t have to admit the Catholic Church is right on even one point. Your positions simply don’t line up at all with reality.

There is still obviously not a universally accepted canon.

. You need to re-read your NT. First, the Last Supper was the first Mass. Second,* we are specifically commanded to remain in the Church, to be certain to always worship together, and to listen to the Church* Any other commands?

 

[RevDon]

St. Justin Martyr wrote in the 100’s. And he was describing what had been taught to his generation of Christians from the prior generations. Sounds like the Mass to me…

Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Suggests that each president was free to say what he could, and that thanksgivings were the substance of what was said. Does it specify anywhere that the “words of institution” were used?

 

[Rosinante]

^^^

1. Read John Ch. 6, vs. 35 et. seq.–very thoroughly…
2. See how the Church Fathers–who were in close proximity to the Apostles–temporally, personally, and/or lineally–interpretted those passages (as opposed to some self-proclaimed, independently, enlightened folks, during and after the 16th centuries, figured it should be interpretted):

e.g.:

The Didache(c. 90 A.D.)
But concerning the Eucharist, after this fashion give ye thanks.

First, concerning the cup. We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine, David thy Son, which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus Christ thy Son; to thee be the glory for ever.

And concerning the broken bread. We thank thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus thy Son; to thee be the glory for ever.

…
And let none eat or drink of your Eucharist but such as have been baptized into the name of the Lord, for of a truth the Lord hath said concerning this, Give not that which is holy unto dogs. ( 9:1-5)

On the Lord’s Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions SO THAT YOUR SACRIFICE MAY BE PURE. Let no one who has a quarrel with his neighbor join you until he is reconciled by the Lord: “In every place and time let there be OFFERED TO ME A CLEAN SACRIFICE. For I am Great King,” says the Lord, “and My name is wonderful among the Gentiles.” (14:1-2)

---

St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 A.D.)
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD, which is love incorruptible. (Letter to the Romans 7:3)

Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: FOR THERE IS ONE FLESH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and one cup IN THE UNION OF HIS BLOOD; one ALTAR, as there is one bishop with the presbytery… (Letter to the Philadelphians 4:1)

They * abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST*, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)​

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 140 - 202 A.D.)
…He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, "THIS IS MY BODY." The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, HE CONFESSED TO BE HIS BLOOD.

…
But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given IS THE BODY OF THEIR LORD, and the cup HIS BLOOD, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator… How can they say that the flesh which has been nourished BY THE BODY OF THE LORD AND BY HIS BLOOD gives way to corruption and does not partake of life? …For as the bread from the earth, receiving the invocation of God, IS NO LONGER COMMON BREAD BUT THE EUCHARIST, consisting of two elements, earthly and heavenly… (Against Heresies 4:18:4-5)
…

When, therefore, the mixed cup and the baked bread receives the Word of God and BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, THE BODY OF CHRIST, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, WHICH IS ETERNAL LIFE – flesh which is nourished BY THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD…receiving the Word of God, BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, WHICH IS THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST… (Against Heresies 5:2:2-3)

---

Tertullian (c. 155 - 250 A.D.)
Likewise, in regard to days of fast, many do not think they should be present at*** the SACRIFICIAL prayers***, because their fast would be broken if they were to receive THE BODY OF THE LORD…THE BODY OF THE LORD HAVING BEEN RECEIVED AND RESERVED, each point is secured: both the participation IN THE SACRIFICE… (Prayer 19:1)

…​

Origen (c. 185 - 254 A.D.)
We give thanks to the Creator of all, and, along with thanksgiving and prayer for the blessings we have received, we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread BECOMES BY PRAYER A SACRED BODY, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it.(Against Celsus 8:33)

You see how the ALTARS are no longer sprinkled with the blood of oxen, but consecrated BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST. (Homilies on Joshua 2:1)

…
You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received THE BODY OF THE LORD, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall, and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish….how is it that you think neglecting the word of God a lesser crime than neglecting HIS BODY? (Homilies on Exodus 13:3)

…now, however, in full view, there is the true food, THE FLESH OF THE WORD OF GOD, as He Himself says: "MY FLESH IS TRULY FOOD, AND MY BLOOD IS TRULY DRINK." (Homilies on Numbers 7:2)

…

 

[Rosinante]

^^^^continuing (2/2):

---

St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)
And we ask that this Bread be given us daily, so that we who are in Christ and daily receive THE EUCHARIST AS THE FOOD OF SALVATION, may not, by falling into some more grievous sin and then in abstaining from communicating, be withheld from the heavenly Bread, and be separated from Christ’s Body…

He Himself warns us, saying, “UNLESS YOU EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YOU SHALL NOT HAVE LIFE IN YOU.” Therefore do we ask that our Bread, WHICH IS CHRIST, be given to us daily, so that we who abide and live in Christ may not withdraw from His sanctification and from His Body. (The Lord’s Prayer 18)

Also in the priest Melchisedech we see THE SACRAMENT OF THE SACRIFICE OF THE LORD prefigured…The order certainly is that which comes from his [Mel’s] sacrifice and which comes down from it: because Mel was a priest of the Most High God; because he offered bread; and because he blessed Abraham. And who is more a priest of the Most High God than our Lord Jesus Christ, who, WHEN HE OFFERED SACRIFICE TO GOD THE FATHER, OFFERED THE VERY SAME WHICH MELCHISEDECH HAD OFFERED, NAMELY BREAD AND WINE, WHICH IS IN FACT HIS BODY AND BLOOD! (Letters 63:4)

If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is Himself the High Priest of God the Father; AND IF ***HE OFFERED HIMSELF AS A SACRIFICE TO THE FATHER; AND IF HE COMMANDED THAT THIS BE DONE IN COMMEMORATION OF HIMSELF ***-- then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, TRULY FUNCTIONS IN PLACE OF CHRIST. (Letters 63:14)

 

[RevDon]

^^^

1. Read John Ch. 6, vs. 35 et. seq.–very thoroughly…
2. See how the Church Fathers–who were in close proximity to the Apostles–temporally, personally, and/or lineally–interpretted those passages (as opposed to some self-proclaimed, independently, enlightened folks, during and after the 16th centuries, figured it should be interpretted):

e.g.:

These quotations all prove that early Christians knew of the words of institution quoted by Paul (1Cor 11:24,25) but they don’t prove that they used those words in the fashion that could be called the consecration of the Mass.

 

[paul_c]

These quotations all prove that early Christians knew of the words of institution quoted by Paul (1Cor 11:24,25) but they don’t prove that they used those words in the fashion that could be called the consecration of the Mass.

Give me a break.
They used those words in the synoptic gospel last supper discourses, in John 6 and in 1Cor 11. That’s 5 distinct authors. What more prove do you want from 2000 years ago. Then you see Justin Martyr 50 or so years later. Do you think this is all merely coincidental?

 

[RevDon]

Give me a break.
They used those words in the synoptic gospel last supper discourses, in John 6 and in 1Cor 11. That’s 5 distinct authors. What more prove do you want from 2000 years ago. Then you see Justin Martyr 50 or so years later. Do you think this is all merely coincidental?

Not at all. I merely contend that the Mass is a development that evolved from Jewish (and for that matter, Gentile) communal meals at which the Christ mystery was recalled. They were breaking of bread. They were the Lord’s Supper. They just weren’t the Mass. There are key elements that we require for the Mass that took some time to develop. Those elements developed differently in different places. In time, many-but not all- Christian communities came to adopt the forms used at Rome. The pivotal word in my argument is “evolved.”

 

[Church_Militant]

Still wrong RD.

Look at what Justin Martyr tells the emperor about Christian worship in his FIRST APOLOGY Ch 65

That’s very early 2nd century, which makes it only shortly after the last book of the New Testament was written and the death of the last of the Twelve, St. John the Evangelist.

**CHAP. LXV.–ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS. ** But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss.(3) There is then brought to the president of the brethren(4) bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. **

CHAP. LXVI.–OF THE EUCHARIST. ** And this food is called among us Eukaristia(5) [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.(6) For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me,(7) this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. **

(Cont’d)**

 

[Church_Militant]

**CHAP. LXVII.–WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS. ** And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,(1) all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,(2) and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,(3) and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

 

[RevDon]

And this food is called among us Eukaristia(5) [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.(6) For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me,(7) this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAP. LXVII.–WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,(1) all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,(2) and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,(

Yes, they had Eucharist. Yes they had elements of what we call Mass. But it wasn’t Mass as we know it. It was not called Mass by those folk. It continued to develop and eventually became Mass. Justin’s comment, “according to his ability” indicates that the prayers would have been different, probably every time they celebrated.

 

[paul_c]

And this food is called among us Eukaristia(5) [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.(6) For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me,(7) this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAP. LXVII.–WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,(1) all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,(2) and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,(

Yes, they had Eucharist. Yes they had elements of what we call Mass. But it wasn’t Mass as we know it. It was not called Mass by those folk. It continued to develop and eventually became Mass. Justin’s comment, “according to his ability” indicates that the prayers would have been different, probably every time they celebrated.

You are talking about minutia. the prayers differ from day to day now.- that’s why the sacremantary is a book, not a sheet of paper. And the various churchs aligned with Rome have different rites as well. The fundamental flow and the REASON for the mass have remained unchanged. That is its essence