John Paul II (rest in peace)

[Manphibian]

Whats up with this?

James White writes, “Now a Vatican representative is saying that Mary has opened wide the door to heaven to John Paul, who dedicated himself to Mary (a reference to the Papal motto, Totus tuus, “totally yours,” addressed not to Jesus, but to Mary). If you are likewise watching, do not hold your breath waiting to hear about repentance from sin, the perfection of the work of Christ, the imputed righteousness of Christ. But you will hear much of Mary, far more than of Jesus. The true faith of Rome is on display in this situation. American Roman Catholic apologists seek to diminish the centrality of Mary in Roman theology, but here you see how foundational Mary is to the piety of the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church in Rome itself.”

How can the “vicar of Christ” dedicated his life to Mary? Scripture teaches that a man cannot serve two masters.

 

[Milliardo]

The saying, “To Jesus Through Mary” comes to mind here. Pope John Paul II has always been Marian, but never for once did he leave his eyes on Christ, that much I can tell. If you ever read his encyclicals, it always enphasize on Christ. I really would suggest getting hold of his writings to know the man.

 

[Manphibian]

How about to Jesus through Jesus, you know, the whole “only name under Heaven by which we must be saved” thing.

 

[Manphibian]

I need a Catholic!

Look people, if anyone has ever wanted to be a Catholic and accept everyone of the Churches teachings it is me. It’s just stuff like this whole Mary thing that makes me wonder what in the world this is all about.

 

[Milliardo]

Manphibian:

How about to Jesus through Jesus, you know, the whole “only name under Heaven by which we must be saved” thing.

The whole point of the saying is that the saints point to Jesus; it is not a denial of Him in any way. In fact, the Catechism begins with exactly that: “Father,…this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth. There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved–than the name of Jesus”. So no, it doesn’t deny Him in any way.

 

[Manphibian]

No, it doesn’t deny him, but it certainly does put him in, if not the back seat, then at least riding shotgun with a car full of others. I believe there’s power in the blood, and Jesus is all we need.

Be His,

Matt

 

[sententia]

Manphibian,

I know that one thing that has really helped me to understand why Mary has the place she has in many Catholic’s lives was after reading this. Perhaps, if you are able, take some time, a week or two, to really meditate on this and think about it, and how it relates to Marian devotion.

It’s easiest to print out- the background won’t print.

 

[RobNY]

Manphibian:

How about to Jesus through Jesus, you know, the whole “only name under Heaven by which we must be saved” thing.

But Mary is the woman through which Jesus came to us in history.

You seem to forget, John Paul II dedicated his entire life to Jesus by becoming a priest. If actions truly speak louder than words, you need to look no further than the holy father’s actions.

And JPII didn’t need to emphasize the perfection of the work of Christ or the need for repentance. Catholics have been doing that since day one. But I think if you did look at his work you would see that he talks about so many other things. I’m not sure James White is the best source for Catholics… he doesn’t consider us Christian, I don’t believe.

As for imputed righteousness, I’m not even sure Catholics can believe in that. At least not the Protestant version. But this isn’t my strong suit.

 

[Manphibian]

I undersatnd Rob, but my wife’s mother brought my wife into the world, yet it is my wife that I’ve given myself to, not her mother. Mary should be honored, but I’m afraid that many, many, well meaning Catholics replace honor with something alot closer to worship, and trust me I know all the arguments on that topic. And yes actions DO speak louder than words, and if one dedicates himself to his spouse and later on, in word and deed, he speaks much more of another and dedicates his life to her, than his actions are worthy of doubt as far as his sincerity to the first goes.

Matt

 

[mlchance]

Oops! You caught us! Yes, we Catholics really worship Mary instead of God, and completely deny that Christ Jesus has anything at all to do with anyone’s salvation. In fact, we secretly promoted Mary to full divinity, turning the Trinity into a Quadrinity. If only Pope John Paul II had been a bit sneakier…

http://home.houston.rr.com/mchance3/rolleyes.gif

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[RobNY]

Manphibian:

I undersatnd Rob, but my wife’s mother brought my wife into the world, yet it is my wife that I’ve given myself to, not her mother. Mary should be honored, but I’m afraid that many, many, well meaning Catholics replace honor with something alot closer to worship, and trust me I know all the arguments on that topic. And yes actions DO speak louder than words, and if one dedicates himself to his spouse and later on, in word and deed, he speaks much more of another and dedicates his life to her, than his actions are worthy of doubt as far as his sincerity to the first goes.

Matt

But your mother in law brought a regular person (no offense to your wife, who is probably a saint!) into the world. Mary brought God into the world, and she did it through her perfect obedience to God. That perfect obedience to God is an awesome thing, and the reason why Catholics see her as a great role model.

Do some Catholics take Mary “honor” into Mary “worship.” Well, I doubt they do so in theirs minds. I doubt that any Catholic goes out with the intent to worship Mary, and 99% of what matters is intent. Please don’t judge Catholics by appearances. Appearances can be deceiving.

In any case. Would some Catholics worshipping Mary disqualify the truth of Catholicism?

 

[Manphibian]

In any case. Would some Catholics worshipping Mary disqualify the truth of Catholicism? Absolutely Not. My point was that the church, with examples like JP2 in roles of major authority, many quotes and encyclicals can be very misleading, such as “Totus Tuus”, etc.

I have to disagree on intent. When a pagan cult worships “god” without ever hearing the gospel and sacrifice their children, then their intentions to please God have just gone down the proverbial potty. If my intent is to worshop Christ and yet I spend as much, if not more time praying the rosary ( I know it’s considered a gospel prayer, but it says Hail Mary, not Hail Jesus 5 million times.), and praying to saints and Mary, then I am definetly failing to honor Christ above all else.
P.S. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

But your mother in law brought a regular person (no offense to your wife, who is probably a saint!) into the world. - My wife thanks you.

"Mary brought God into the world, and she did it through her perfect obedience to God. That perfect obedience to God is an awesome thing, and the reason why Catholics see her as a great role model. "

She is a great role model and a great HUMANBEING, not a deity. She certainly was full of Grace, beyond all measure, but that grace was a gift from her God, as well as the fruit of her womb. Mary’s gracefulness, and even her sinlessness ( if one subscribes to that beleif) could not merit anything from God, no one’s own righteousness can. Christ was and is a free gift, none of us, even the blessed virgin could merit such a gift. So you see, Jesus Christ is the one and only person in history who deserves reverant prayer and worship, Mary’s righteousness, like Joseph’s, Abraham’s, etc. could never save anyone from hell.

Let Mercy Lead,
Matt

 

[RobNY]

Manphibian:

In any case. Would some Catholics worshipping Mary disqualify the truth of Catholicism? Absolutely Not. My point was that the church, with examples like JP2 in roles of major authority, many quotes and encyclicals can be very misleading, such as “Totus Tuus”, etc.

But it isn’t misleading. You realized as much as I did when you first read it that JPII wasn’t actually putting Mary first.

I have to disagree on intent. When a pagan cult worships “god” without ever hearing the gospel and sacrifice their children, then their intentions to please God have just gone down the proverbial potty. If my intent is to worshop Christ and yet I spend as much, if not more time praying the rosary ( I know it’s considered a gospel prayer, but it says Hail Mary, not Hail Jesus 5 million times.), and praying to saints and Mary, then I am definetly failing to honor Christ above all else.
P.S. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I agree about the road to hell, but I’m talking about the individual culpability of Christians. If the Christian does not intend to give latria to Mary, then I seriously doubt latria is given (in the context of prayer to Mary and such).

But your mother in law brought a regular person (no offense to your wife, who is probably a saint!) into the world. - My wife thanks you.

Hello wife of Manphibian!!!

She is a great role model and a great HUMANBEING, not a deity. She certainly was full of Grace, beyond all measure, but that grace was a gift from her God, as well as the fruit of her womb. Mary’s gracefulness, and even her sinlessness ( if one subscribes to that beleif) could not merit anything from God, no one’s own righteousness can.

And we’re all in agreement here…

Christ was and is a free gift, none of us, even the blessed virgin could merit such a gift. So you see, Jesus Christ is the one and only person in history who deserves reverant prayer and worship, Mary’s righteousness, like Joseph’s, Abraham’s, etc. could never save anyone from hell.

Prayer is just asking someone something. Worship, indeed, is due to God and to God alone. Prayer and worship can be the same, but they don’t necessarily have to be. I think we agree that only God saves.

Can you find anything logically or rationally wrong with the official Catholic belief?

 

[Manphibian]

I can find things wrong with many of the doctrines of the church concerning Mary. Co-redemptrix, Co-mediatrix, Bodily Assumption, Immaculate Conception, Coronation as Queen of Heaven, Mother AND SPOUSE of God, etc. All of these are impossible to me, and I’ve studied it deeply, I have my Catechism right here. Why so many Marian Dogmas?

Why not just say: Mary is blessed among women and one, if not the, most highly blessed and favored creatures ever to walk the earth, she is the perfect example of how we should live in submission to God, and how to be a willing servant. She is the mother of Jesus our Lord, and therefore we honor her above all other humans, and we’re positive that she’s in Heaven, have a nice day.

 

[shannin]

I understand your questions and confusion and I will pray for you. But, please read JPIIs writings. He did not put anyone before Jesus. All you have to do is read his enciclycals to understand this.

I have a question for you that I’ve asked in these forums before: IF CATHOLIC’S WORSHIPPED MARY, THEN WHY WOULD WE DENY IT? The answer is that we don’t worship her - we give her the highest honor because she brought Jesus into this world. She is the new Eve - the “seed of the woman” spoken of in Genesis.

 

[Manphibian]

I’m not suggesting the all catholics worship Mary, my point is that catholics have invented all of this Marian dogma to place Mary on such a pedestal that she hear’s more prayers daily than even Jesus does. It seems like people with extreme Marian devotion do place her right up there with Christ, telling people to “pray to the holy family”, or say ten hail Mary’s, and that type of stuff, why not tell people who’re struggling to confess their sins to God, in the name of Jesus, or something that’s not extra biblical?

Mary picked the roses, Jesus made the roses bloom,

matt

 

[RobNY]

Manphibian:

I can find things wrong with many of the doctrines of the church concerning Mary. Co-redemptrix,

Is co-redemptrix a doctrine, or just a theory, currently?

Co-mediatrix

Ditto here.

Bodily Assumption, Immaculate Conception, Coronation as Queen of Heaven, Mother AND SPOUSE of God, etc. All of these are impossible to me, and I’ve studied it deeply, I have my Catechism right here. Why so many Marian Dogmas?

Immaculate Conception and Assumption, make perfect sense to me. Do you have a problem with either of those? I might be able to defend those. Hehe. Did you ever read this link before? Perhaps it will bring to you a better understanding of Mary. Please, please read it and tell me what you think of it.

EDIT: Ignore this bit unless the link doesn’t work, it was just working for me again, but it hadn’t been working at other times [GAH! The link isn’t working. Do this. 1. Google “newman apologetics resource mark ark of the covenant” 2. click on the *second link, and then 3. look on the lefthand side bar, and 4. click on “17. Mary, Ark of the Covenant.” That’s how I got to it. But, the link is being a pain.]

As to the rest of what you said, sometimes things can’t be that simple.

 

[Ghosty]

Co-Redemptrix and co-mediatrix are not doctrines, but theological opinions. Even then, they are not in error. You have to understand the whole relationship between the Old Testament Adam and Eve and the New Testament’s Jesus and Mary to understand what Catholics mean when they say such things. Without the understanding of those connections, you can’t even begin to know what we mean by the terms co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix.

I would also point out that the Coronation is completely Scriptural. It’s in the Book of Revelations, and has been understood as such since the earliest days of the Church.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Manphibian]

Good article Rob, makes sense.

Here’s what I firmly believe about Mary.
Blessed among women
Mother of Christ

I also believe that she could have been born free from original sin, and that Jesus could have been her only child. The rest, to me anyway, rings of human invention. It’s almost like as the years have gone by the dogma’s of Mary that have developed are making her more and more into some type of goddess.

Believing what I do about her, I could never become “totally hers” or dedicate my life to the virgin. I’m just saying that this stuff is all about Jesus and that we shouldn’t complicate it and create irrevocable dogmas about things that do not matter anyway.

When I meet the blessed Virgin in Heaven someday, I’m going to tell her “Thank you for your faith in God, you’ve been a great example for us all. Truely you are blessed among women, and how blessed I am to finally meet the mother of my Lord.” Then I’m going to pluck an angel’s feather for her and ask her to dance with me to the tune of the “Holy, Holy, Holies”. But I’m going to save all of my adoration, all of my worship, all of myself for the One who made me and loved me before the foundations of the world.

“Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, His mercy endureth forever.”

His

 

[Todd_Easton]

Manphibian:

How can the “vicar of Christ” dedicated his life to Mary? Scripture teaches that a man cannot serve two masters.

Scripture says that Jesus was obedient to the Father and that Jesus was also obedient to Mary (Luke 2:51); there is no dichotomy in serving the Lord and in serving Mary. Mary is “the handmaid of the Lord” so to serve Mary is to serve her Lord. I suppose Mr. White would also have a problem with Christian slaves serving their Christian masters, Christian children serving their Christian parents, and Christian wives serving their Christian husbands. It is not Roman theology but Mr. White’s imagination that makes Mary of equal or greater dignity than Jesus; Roman theology holds that Jesus is divine (God incarnate) and that Mary is a creature, the most exalted of creatures but still a creature.

Manphibian:

Whats up with this?

… the centrality of Mary in Roman theology…

How does one measure such things? If we go by the numbers, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which Pope John Paul II, said was “a sure norm for teaching the faith,” the word “Christ” appears 1699 times (“Jesus”, 855 times) and the word “Mary” appears only 166 times. Of the 2865 paragraphs in the Catechism, only 13 paragraphs (#963-#975) are dedicated to Mary’s role is the economy of salvation. If Mary was central to Roman theology as Mr. White alleges, how do you explain that “Christ” is mentioned more than 10 times more often than “Mary” in the Catechism and less than one-half of one percent of the Catechism is dedicated to Mary role in the economy of salvation? Obviously, Mr. White is wrong in his assessment and Jesus Christ, not Mary, is the one who is central to Roman theology; in the scheme of things Mary is but a far distant second to Jesus.

The Mass is the chief prayer of the Catholic Church and, except for one or two brief (if you blink you will miss them) requests that Mary and the saints pray for us, it’s almost entirely addressed to the Father, through Jesus, with Jesus, and in Jesus. Again, Mr. White is wrong in his assessment and Jesus, not Mary, is the at the center and heart of the Catholic Church’s prayers.