John the Baptist and St Joseph sinless?

[thomasf]

I heard something today I’ve never heard before. That St John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, but born without original sin. I’ve never heard this before. Does this mean he remained without sin all his life like Mary?

Also that St Joseph was made sinless after Jesus’ birth. Again, not something I’ve ever heard.

Does the church teach this? If so, where? I’ve never heard these assertions.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

There are old traditions, which include old Church teachings which say that John the Baptist was cleansed of original sin at the moment St. Elizabeth met the Virgin Mary and the child leaped in her womb at the visitation. It is further taught that St. John the Baptist remained sinless throughout his life, just as the BVM. It is also supposed (and taught) that St. Joseph had a similar grace due to his role in the Incarnation. These are old traditions, and teachings of the Church. They are not dogmas however, and we are not obliged to believe these traditions.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Well, Scripture says that St. John the Baptist was going to live a very upright life. This has been traditionally interpreted as saying that he never fell into mortal sin. He was conceived in Original Sin, just like all of us, but was cleansed when Christ visited him while they were both still in the womb (remember, John leaped in his mother womb?). It was like being baptized but before birth. This is because Christ’s Baptism wasn’t instituted until Christ was Baptized Himself by John when they were adults, so a different method was used.
Lk 1:13-17:

But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John: and thou shalt have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice in his nativity. For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

And he shall convert many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias; that he may turn the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the incredulous to the wisdom of the just, to prepare unto the Lord a perfect people.

With St. Joseph, it is hard to be that close to God Almighty and fall into mortal sin.

With the Apostles following Pentecost, they did not fall into mortal sin because it was necessary for upright men to give testimony to the Gospel. Who would believe if they saw that those men teaching the Gospel were sinners? So God protected them through an extraordinary grace from falling into mortal sin.

These things are not dogmas but they are traditional teachings (I don’t know where they originated).

 

[thomasf]

With the Apostles following Pentecost, they did not fall into mortal sin because it was necessary for upright men to give testimony to the Gospel. Who would believe if they saw that those men teaching the Gospel were sinners? So God protected them through an extraordinary grace from falling into mortal sin.

These things are not dogmas but they are traditional teachings (I don’t know where they originated).

Are you saying that the Apostles were protected from sin as well after Pentecost? I’ve never heard that taught before either. Suddenly there’s a lot of sinless folks roaming around in biblical times. IMO if the Apostles were protected from sin, then why weren’t the Bishops that followed them?

I undestand the part about John, with the sanctifcation in the womb. But suddenly we’re saying all these people who came in contact with Christ were then free from sin?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Are you saying that the Apostles were protected from sin as well after Pentecost? I’ve never heard that taught before either. Suddenly there’s a lot of sinless folks roaming around in biblical times. IMO if the Apostles were protected from sin, then why weren’t the Bishops that followed them?

I undestand the part about John, with the sanctifcation in the womb. But suddenly we’re saying all these people who came in contact with Christ were then free from sin?

“protected from sin” is a bad way of putting it. Not even the BVM was protected from sin (other than original sin.) What is being said is that they led sinless, blameless lives with the help of God’s grace. Everyone is called to do the same. Not only the Apostles, but many Saints, Martyrs, Fathers, desert fathers, Confessors and other members of the Church led sinless, blameless lives. Some from the moment of birth, others from the moment of their conversion. We can’t know such things. However, with St. John the Baptist and St. Joseph, we have old Church teachings, by Fathers of the Church, Popes, and others. Still it is not dogmatic, and does not oblige belief.

 

[Salvatore123]

The most beautiful thing the Catholic Church has - and the most misunderstood and, often times, intentionally misrepresented dogma of our faith by non-Catholics - is the grace by which God can bestow on certain people in our faith.

Just as God could have given sufficient grace for the Apostles, St. John the Baptist, and St. Joseph, to lead relatively or absolutely sinless lives, God also bestows that special grace on EVERY pope - whether that pope was bad or good as a human being - to prevent that particular people from ever fallibly teaching a matter of faith and morals. It is that special “charism” that follows from Christ’s promise to St. Peter that the gates of hell would never prevail against the church.

We had ONE pope (whose name escapes me right now ) who came very, very close to signing a document that would have, for the first and only time up to that point (and since) resulted in a teaching of a false doctrine concerning faith/morals. But even under duress (external or internal), all Holy Fathers “proved” that Christ had not lied when he said he would protect his Church.

P.S. - although I am very thankful for it, it does make me sad and feel ashamed at how I behave.

God grants ALL men sufficient grace to lead a sinless life. To not do so would make God out to be cruel, and that is simply not true. My shame arises - and arises IMMEDIATELY - the moment I sin, knowing that I had sufficient grace in me to have not acted as I just did, but nevertheless chose to turn away from God anyway, all because of that root of all sin: pride.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Are you saying that the Apostles were protected from sin as well after Pentecost? I’ve never heard that taught before either. Suddenly there’s a lot of sinless folks roaming around in biblical times. IMO if the Apostles were protected from sin, then why weren’t the Bishops that followed them?

I undestand the part about John, with the sanctifcation in the womb. But suddenly we’re saying all these people who came in contact with Christ were then free from sin?

I heard the part about the Apostles from Fr. Ripperger ( www.sensustraditionis.org ). I don’t recall what sermon.

St. Thomas makes a reference to it:

Summa:

It would seem that since Christ’s Passion the legal ceremonies can be observed without committing mortal sin. For we must not believe that the apostles committed mortal sin after receiving the Holy Ghost: since by His fulness they were “endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:49). But the apostles observed the legal ceremonies after the coming of the Holy Ghost: for it is stated (Acts 16:3) that Paul circumcised Timothy: and (Acts 21:26) that Paul, at the advice of James, “took the men, and . . . being purified with them, entered into the temple, giving notice of the accomplishment of the days of purification, until an oblation should be offered for every one of them.” Therefore the legal ceremonies can be observed since the Passion of Christ without mortal sin.

St. Thomas rejects the proposition that the observances of the Old Law can be committed without committing mortal sin, but does not touch the assertion that the Apostles did not commit mortal sin after Pentecost.

Remember, if someone commits a mortal sin, they kick the Holy Ghost out of their soul. Then if they go to Confession and do penance, the Holy Ghost will enter them again. But the statement is very similar to that of St. John the Baptist, of whom Scripture says that the Holy Ghost will fill him from his mother’s womb (and it is implied that He will not depart from him). So thus, it is a pious belief (again, I don’t know the original source) that the Apostles did not fall from grace after Pentecost.

Of St. Peter we see this more explicitly, as Our Lord says:
Lk 22:31-32:

And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

So St. Peter did indeed fall into mortal sin (as Our Lord prophesied immediately following this prophecy) when he denied Christ three times. But Christ prayed that once he was converted and came back to Christ, he would be strengthened and would be receive the grace necessary not to fall into mortal sin.

Again, not dogma, just a traditional teaching.

Anyway! Happy Easter! (I need to go to bed, I just got home from the Easter Vigil and I had to post a Happy Easter message on Facebook and then I got distracted…)

 

[puzzleannie]

I heard something today I’ve never heard before. That St John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, but born without original sin. I’ve never heard this before. Does this mean he remained without sin all his life like Mary?

Also that St Joseph was made sinless after Jesus’ birth. Again, not something I’ve ever heard.

Does the church teach this? If so, where? I’ve never heard these assertions.

I have never seen any official teaching on either idea

 

[LilyM]

Don’t we all have original sin washed away by our baptism? And don’t we all still sin nonetheless?

I don’t think it follows, from what was said about St John the Baptist and St Joseph being cleansed of original sin, that they must have remained sinless their whole lives. As with the Apostles, they might not have been guilty of mortal sins, but would probably have at least been guilty of venial sins.

 

[TimothyH]

PilgrimToChrist makes a great point about John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit from Birth!

And since this is the Sacred Scripture forum, I’ll just point out the many people in the Bible who are described as having “Walked blamelessly before the Lord” and as having obeyed all of God’s laws and ordinances, etc.

Job is an example…

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright; one who feared God, and turned away from evil. (Job 1:1) John The Baptist’s mother and father are another example…
In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly. (Luke 1:5-6)

-Tim-

 

[thomasf]

The most beautiful thing the Catholic Church has - and the most misunderstood and, often times, intentionally misrepresented dogma of our faith by non-Catholics - is the grace by which God can bestow on certain people in our faith.

Just as God could have given sufficient grace for the Apostles, St. John the Baptist, and St. Joseph, to lead relatively or absolutely sinless lives, God also bestows that special grace on EVERY pope - whether that pope was bad or good as a human being - to prevent that particular people from ever fallibly teaching a matter of faith and morals. It is that special “charism” that follows from Christ’s promise to St. Peter that the gates of hell would never prevail against the church.

We had ONE pope (whose name escapes me right now ) who came very, very close to signing a document that would have, for the first and only time up to that point (and since) resulted in a teaching of a false doctrine concerning faith/morals. But even under duress (external or internal), all Holy Fathers “proved” that Christ had not lied when he said he would protect his Church.

P.S. - although I am very thankful for it, it does make me sad and feel ashamed at how I behave.

God grants ALL men sufficient grace to lead a sinless life. To not do so would make God out to be cruel, and that is simply not true. My shame arises - and arises IMMEDIATELY - the moment I sin, knowing that I had sufficient grace in me to have not acted as I just did, but nevertheless chose to turn away from God anyway, all because of that root of all sin: pride.

Even the Popes today go to confession. While I understand the Holy Spirit guides the church and prevents the Popes from teaching in error, I don’t believe that they don’t sin. And I have a hard time believing that any of the other folks we’ve talked about here led sinless lives as well. I just don’t think there’s evidence to support that. The Bishops are the successors of the Apostles, and I would think had that grace been given to the Apostles, it would pass along to their successors as well. Think of it, giving the protection to the church through the Holy Spirit was great, wouldn’t it have been better had God made all the successors to the Apostles sinless as well?

I imagine that after seeing Jesus resurrected and being imbued with the HS at Pentecost it would have made you a pretty good person, and capable of great resistance to sin. But to remain sinless for the rest of their lives is a big task. Concupiscence is a big problem.

 

[thistle]

I heard something today I’ve never heard before. That St John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, but born without original sin. I’ve never heard this before. Does this mean he remained without sin all his life like Mary?

Also that St Joseph was made sinless after Jesus’ birth. Again, not something I’ve ever heard.

Does the church teach this? If so, where? I’ve never heard these assertions.

We can only speculate because the Church does not have any teachings on this.

 

[shaky]

Even the Popes today go to confession. While I understand the Holy Spirit guides the church and prevents the Popes from teaching in error, I don’t believe that they don’t sin. And I have a hard time believing that any of the other folks we’ve talked about here led sinless lives as well. I just don’t think there’s evidence to support that. The Bishops are the successors of the Apostles, and I would think had that grace been given to the Apostles, it would pass along to their successors as well. Think of it, giving the protection to the church through the Holy Spirit was great, wouldn’t it have been better had God made all the successors to the Apostles sinless as well?

I imagine that after seeing Jesus resurrected and being imbued with the HS at Pentecost it would have made you a pretty good person, and capable of great resistance to sin. But to remain sinless for the rest of their lives is a big task. Concupiscence is a big problem.

I am quite sure that i did read somewhere in the catechism of the church. Anyone who claims to be without Sin are to be Anathematised. Does this apply only to those outside the church?? Or does this Apply to those within the church also??