John the Baptist born without sin

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If Adam and Eve were created without sin and Mary was conceived and born without sin and our Lord was conceived and born without sin was John the baptist born without sin if you read Luke 1:41-45 Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and if she is filled with the Holy Spirit is she without sin at that point and also John.

Tony
 
Slow down, Tony!🙂

Adam and Eve were created (not conceived) without sin. But even being created (or conceived) without sin, one can still have the capacity to sin. Adam and Eve did sin, and fell, but were redeemed.

Jesus is God and man. Jesus was not “created”. By the fact that He is God, Jesus is sinless from the start. As a man, he was ‘tempted’ by sin to the degree any of us are (human nature) but freely chose–as man–to remain free of all sin. This state, by the way, is what humanity was meant to be–capable of sin by free will, yet freely choosing to be without sin in order to please almighty God.

Mary is a creature, conceived without sin by the grace of God. (The only one–that is why her title is “immaculate conception”). Again, fully human, she chose to remain sinless to glorify God.

Now, John was by tradition conceived in sin but when greeted by Mary, the infant Jesus in her womb filled John (in Elizabeth’s womb) with the Spirit. Therefore John, though conceived in sin, was born without sin. However, this does not mean that he never had personal sin in his life; the Church makes no pronouncement on this.

As to Elizabeth, she was greeted and she was filled with the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit had the same effect on her that it does on us–it opens us to God so long as we accept it and remain free from grave sin–but the Spirit will leave us if we commit grave sin. So yes, Elizabeth was without “grave” sin at the time she was greeted, since only those without grave sin may receive the Holy Spirit. But she was most likely, as we all are, in venial sin–if not just then, at some other time. Since she is a saint, we know that she is in heaven so even if she had any venial sins they have been remitted, otherwise she would still be in purgatory.

OK?
 
I wrote that Adam and Eve were created not conceived and that our Lord was conceived not created and that John was conceived in sin but was born without it.

Tony
 
Is John’s being born without sin a church teaching or just a tradition?
 
Well, I’m not sure what you mean by “just a tradition” or what you mean by ‘teaching.’ It isn’t an expressed dogma like Mary’s Immaculate Conception–but it also isn’t something that is ‘just tradition’ --like eating a special food at Christmas. Sacred tradition is different from the types of tradition that are found in say the apocrypha. Yet, the Catholic Church does teach that the names of Mary’s parents are Anne and Joachim (which is found in the Protoevangelium).

I would say that the Scripture (the baby leaping in the womb for joy, filled with the Holy Spirit) would indicate that the infant John was baptised in the Spirit. Keep in mind that the good thief on the Cross was never baptised with water yet was baptised in the spirit with his request to be remembered in the kingdom. It is certainly the understanding that this amounts of baptism of desire. Can you imagine the infant John, meeting the Spirit/the infant Jesus, not desiring to ‘come to Him’ in baptism? And the movement. And really, why would Luke even mention this? The fact that Elizabeth was “filled with the Spirit” and that her unborn childn ‘leapt in the womb’ obviously had more meaning than just recording a physical ‘happening’ between the two cousins. And then, what does Mary go on to pray, but the Magnificat. . .
 
thanks for the info i never thought it to be a dogma but i never heard it discussed before so i didn’t now if the church had an opinion on the subject.

tony
 
Tantum Ego

I’ve had a question that i have been pondering for a time. I saw this foot note. Whats your take on it? Do you think Jermiah was born without sin? Do you think there have been 4 people instead of three born without sin? (Jesus and mary were conceived without sin and John was born without sin)

3 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.
usccb.org/nab/bible/jeremiah/jeremiah1.htm

3 [5] Jeremiah was destined to the office of prophet before his birth; cf Isaiah 49:1, 5; Luke 1:15; Gal 1:15, 16. I knew you: I loved you and chose you. I dedicated you: I set you apart to be a prophet. Some Fathers and later theologians understand this to mean that Jeremiah was freed from original sin before his birth. The context does not justify this conclusion. The nations: the pagan neighbors of Judah, besides the great world powers-Assyria, Babylonia, Egypt-intimately associated with Judah’s destiny.
 
Slow down, Tony!🙂

Adam and Eve were created (not conceived) without sin. But even being created (or conceived) without sin, one can still have the capacity to sin. Adam and Eve did sin, and fell, but were redeemed.

Jesus is God and man. Jesus was not “created”. By the fact that He is God, Jesus is sinless from the start. As a man, he was ‘tempted’ by sin to the degree any of us are (human nature) but freely chose–as man–to remain free of all sin. This state, by the way, is what humanity was meant to be–capable of sin by free will, yet freely choosing to be without sin in order to please almighty God.

Mary is a creature, conceived without sin by the grace of God. (The only one–that is why her title is “immaculate conception”). Again, fully human, she chose to remain sinless to glorify God.

Now, John was by tradition conceived in sin but when greeted by Mary, the infant Jesus in her womb filled John (in Elizabeth’s womb) with the Spirit. Therefore John, though conceived in sin, was born without sin. However, this does not mean that he never had personal sin in his life; the Church makes no pronouncement on this.

As to Elizabeth, she was greeted and she was filled with the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit had the same effect on her that it does on us–it opens us to God so long as we accept it and remain free from grave sin–but the Spirit will leave us if we commit grave sin. So yes, Elizabeth was without “grave” sin at the time she was greeted, since only those without grave sin may receive the Holy Spirit. But she was most likely, as we all are, in venial sin–if not just then, at some other time. Since she is a saint, we know that she is in heaven so even if she had any venial sins they have been remitted, otherwise she would still be in purgatory.

OK?
Tantum Ergo,
I would like to congratulate you in such a fine and succinct explanation. This was very well said! While I knew all this, I found your explanation quite refreshing! :tiphat:

A Merry Christmastide to you as well!
 
In my opinion, what John the Baptist received in the womb was equivalent to what we receive in baptism. So he still had that remnant of original sin, which is called concupiscence, but he had sanctifying grace from the womb.

No one is born with any personal sins on their conscience. Being born with original sin means being born in need of Baptism, due to the loss of sanctifying grace by Adam and Eve.

Jesus and Mary had neither original sin, nor personal sin, so they were not in need of Baptism.

Ron
 
If Adam and Eve were created without sin and Mary was conceived and born without sin and our Lord was conceived and born without sin was John the baptist born without sin if you read Luke 1:41-45 Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and if she is filled with the Holy Spirit is she without sin at that point and also John.

Tony
Romans 3:23 tells us **ALL **have sinned. Even Mary and John the Baptist. Only Jesus was sinnless.
 
Slow down, Tony!🙂

As to Elizabeth, she was greeted and she was filled with the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit had the same effect on her that it does on us–it opens us to God so long as we accept it and remain free from grave sin–but the Spirit will leave us if we commit grave sin. So yes, Elizabeth was without “grave” sin at the time she was greeted, since only those without grave sin may receive the Holy Spirit. But she was most likely, as we all are, in venial sin–if not just then, at some other time. Since she is a saint, we know that she is in heaven so even if she had any venial sins they have been remitted, otherwise she would still be in purgatory.

OK?
Would not the same apply to Mary … with one exception ?

No good Catholic believes Mary ever fell victim to sin after the holy spirit came upon her.
 
But… if Jesus is fully man, then Jesus would fit under ALL. :confused:
Fully man and Fully God. He was born via the Holy Spirit and not a man, therefore He wasn’t born into Sin. In other words, if you’re conceived by a man and a woman, you are born in to sin. This applies to all of us except Jesus.
 
How about Mary ?? Church teaches she is the exception to the rule.
She was born of a man and woman. This applies to Mary as well, there are no exceptions.

Just as you and I need a saviour, Mary did too.
 
She was born of a man and woman. This applies to Mary as well, there are no exceptions.

Just as you and I need a saviour, Mary did too.
Church teaches she was Baptized by H.S. at early stage … within the womb. Thus, the Immaculate Conception … free of original sins via Baptism …from the moment sinfull egg and sperm joined.
 
Church teaches she was Baptized by H.S. at early stage … within the womb. Thus, the Immaculate Conception … free of original sins via Baptism …from the moment sinfull egg and sperm joined.
Mary was baptized while in the womb of her mother?
 
Mary was baptized while in the womb of her mother?
Yes, Catholic dogma teaches she was baptized by the H.S. at the moment the two haploid germ cells joined. Thus, original sin was washed away and she was forever thereafter with H.S. and forever w/o sin.
 
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