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SnakeMauler
Guest
Jesus said that he is, but in the beginning of the Gospel of John, he claims to not be Elijah. So, did John the Baptist just not realize hew as Elijah, or what?
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
I tripped over that one some years ago. I think John is denying being the messiah, he isn’t really denying being “Elijah”. If John had admitted being Elijah (which he isn’t physically, and Jesus says if you will accept it, he is Elijah.) the scribes/Pharisees would have possibly have believed him to be claiming to be the Messiah. The culmination of of their questions is the clue there – they want to know the nature of the Baptism. Also, don’t forget John had a miraculous birth only months apart from Jesus, his Father was an Aaronite (High priestly line), etc. He was quite a candidate…
John would later send his disciples to see Jesus and ask his identity – not because John didn’t know who Jesus was at that point – but because his disciples weren’t making the transition over to Jesus. They seemed to think John was the endpoint of prophecy. In Jesus’ reply to John’s disciples, he invokes the prophecy of Isaiah in agreement with John’s description of himself, and also correcting John’s disciples by showing that he, Jesus, was the one opening the eyes of the blind, making the lame walk, etc…
Notice also the question about Jesus’ identity: Matth 16:14 – Whom do people say that the son of man is? But they said Some John the Baptist, and others say Elias, and others…
But in that line, they don’t mention Messiah…and Peter’s profession is unique in its detection of the nature of the messiah – the Son of the living God.
So, realize, there is uncertainty about the meaning of Elijah with respect to the messiah.
Again in Matthew 17:10 the disciples ask “Why do the scribes say that Elias must come first?”
Jesus answers “Elias indeed shall come, … and is come” or Mark 9:12, “Elias also is come…”
So Jesus is illustrating that the prophecy concerning Elijah may have more than one fulfillment.
Notice John the Baptist quotes Isaiah.
Luke 1:23 – "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaias.
Isaiah 35:8 And a path and a way shall be there, and it shall be called the holy way: the unclean shall not pass over it, and this shall be unto you a straight way, so that fools shall not err therein.
The way in the desert was the way of the Exodus, historically. It is known most strongly for being a wandering in the desert for 40 years. That is, it wasn’t straight… and this was on account of fools who refused to change their ways of sin. The new way was not to be a repeat of the desert, but a correction and new creation of it.
Then Isaiah preaches the voice of that path:
Isaia 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Then immediately after discussing the crossing of the sea from Egypt. eg: the baptism into Moses. Isaiah says:
Isaiah 43:19 – “I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert.”
But Isaiah is also the one who prophecies about the messiah, and the virgin with child to Achaz. It isn’t possible for John to cite this without indicating he was a forerunner of the messiah… and Jesus himself.
But Isaiah says nothing about Elijah anywhere so what is it that made the scribes and Pharisees and Jesus suspect and attribute this role to John in the first place?
I don’t think it is that John didn’t know who he himself was – for he correctly cites prophecy about himself. I think the crux is that different people held different views about what “being” Elijah meant – and John did NOT want the interpretation the Pharisees and Scribes were thinking to be attributed to him.
On the other hand, Jesus is broadening the mind of his disciples about the meaning of what Being Elijah means. There is a way in which John acts as Elijah once did or is said to do.
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Carlan
Guest
We don’t know, It is a mystery, We know Elijah was precursor of Jesus and John the Baptist in that sense is the New Ellijah:shrug: .SM someone is bound to come along who can explain it properly.
Peace, Carlan
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Mintaka
Guest
In Luke 1:16-17, the angel Gabriel prophesied to Zechariah about John:
“And he shall turn back many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias; that he may turn the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the incredulous to the wisdom of the just, to prepare unto the Lord a perfect people.”
So like Elijah’s disciple Elisha (who asked for a double portion of Elijah’s spirit and got it, right before Elijah went off in the chariot of fire), John was invested with Elijah’s spirit and power. In that sense, both he and Elisha were identified with Elijah; but they weren’t reincarnations of Elijah or anything like that.
Meanwhile, Elijah himself did show up with Moses at the Transfiguration. So the prophecies were fulfilled literally as well as figuratively.
“And he shall turn back many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias; that he may turn the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the incredulous to the wisdom of the just, to prepare unto the Lord a perfect people.”
So like Elijah’s disciple Elisha (who asked for a double portion of Elijah’s spirit and got it, right before Elijah went off in the chariot of fire), John was invested with Elijah’s spirit and power. In that sense, both he and Elisha were identified with Elijah; but they weren’t reincarnations of Elijah or anything like that.
Meanwhile, Elijah himself did show up with Moses at the Transfiguration. So the prophecies were fulfilled literally as well as figuratively.
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beehumble
Guest
Huiou Theou said:
But Isaiah says nothing about Elijah anywhere so what is it that made the scribes and Pharisees and Jesus suspect and attribute this role to John in the first place?
The answer to that is Malachi:
Mal 3:1-2: 1
1 Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; And suddenly there will come to the temple the LORD whom you seek, And the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.
2
But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner’s fire, or like the fuller’s lye.
ending with:
Mal 3:23-24:
23
Lo, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, Before the day of the LORD comes, the great and terrible day,
24
To turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the land with doom.
And Mintaka is correct in what he says too.
When Jesus said Elijah will come and restore all things and did come but they did not recognize him - meaning, it says in Scripture, John the Baptist - He is speaking via Typology. Elijah is an Old Testament Type for John the Baptist (Moses is a type of Christ; The Ark is a type for Blessed Mary, Abraham’s sacrifice of his only son Isaac, then substituted with a ram (a male lamb) that has his horns (part of its head) covered with a thicket (type of the crown of thorns) is all a type for God’s sacrifice of His only Son, etc)
From the Catechism:
The unity of the Old and New Testaments
128 The Church, as early as apostolic times,and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God’s works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son.
129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself. Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament. As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.
130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfillment of the divine plan when “God [will] be everything to everyone.” Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God’s plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.
Again, Elijah is a ‘type’ for the New Testament’s John the Baptist. And Jesus indicated another Elijah will come - so we can expect another “Elijah” before the Second Coming.
But Isaiah says nothing about Elijah anywhere so what is it that made the scribes and Pharisees and Jesus suspect and attribute this role to John in the first place?
The answer to that is Malachi:
Mal 3:1-2: 1
1 Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; And suddenly there will come to the temple the LORD whom you seek, And the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.
2
But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner’s fire, or like the fuller’s lye.
ending with:
Mal 3:23-24:
23
Lo, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, Before the day of the LORD comes, the great and terrible day,
24
To turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the land with doom.
And Mintaka is correct in what he says too.
When Jesus said Elijah will come and restore all things and did come but they did not recognize him - meaning, it says in Scripture, John the Baptist - He is speaking via Typology. Elijah is an Old Testament Type for John the Baptist (Moses is a type of Christ; The Ark is a type for Blessed Mary, Abraham’s sacrifice of his only son Isaac, then substituted with a ram (a male lamb) that has his horns (part of its head) covered with a thicket (type of the crown of thorns) is all a type for God’s sacrifice of His only Son, etc)
From the Catechism:
The unity of the Old and New Testaments
128 The Church, as early as apostolic times,and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God’s works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son.
129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself. Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament. As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.
130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfillment of the divine plan when “God [will] be everything to everyone.” Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God’s plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.
Again, Elijah is a ‘type’ for the New Testament’s John the Baptist. And Jesus indicated another Elijah will come - so we can expect another “Elijah” before the Second Coming.
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COPLAND_3
Guest
He was not literally Elijah. I wrote an article about it here litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Was+John+the+Baptist+really+Elijah%3F
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