John the Baptist knowledge of Jesus

[docsuth]

John the Baptist was a relative of Jesus and knew him. When he baptized Jesus it is not clear whether he heard the voice saying that Jesus was the son of the Father but it seems reasonable to assume that he did. There are other examples of John apparently knowing who Jesus was. Then why did he, while in prison, send his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the Messiah?

 

[po18guy]

See what John Baptist said in John 1:28-34

This took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me.’ I myself did not know him; but for this I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” And John bore witness, “I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him; but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

Clearly, John Baptist knew who Jesus was. Notice also the similarity between John saying that Jesus came ‘after him but was before him’ with what Jesus said in John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Compare also John’s sending of his disciples to our Lord, with what Jesus asked the ruler in Luke 18:18-19

And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

Jesus clearly knew that He was One with God, and was God in the flesh. What we see here is a Rabbinic use of questioning a question to nudge the questioner toward the answer. Jesus was hinting that He also was God in the flesh, and waiting to see if the ruler picked up on the fact.

John’s sending of his disciples strikes me, in light of John 1:28-34, as feigning ignorance so that his disciples would go and learn directly from Jesus, then decide for themselves.

 

[mangy_dog]

John the Baptist was a relative of Jesus and knew him. When he baptized Jesus it is not clear whether he heard the voice saying that Jesus was the son of the Father but it seems reasonable to assume that he did. There are other examples of John apparently knowing who Jesus was. Then why did he, while in prison, send his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the Messiah?

Remember that Jesus did not openly start His ministry until He was on or about 30 y/o. So He would not have allowed anyone (except His Mother) to be privy to His Messiahship.

John on the other hand would’ve started his ministry much earlier so that he already had a following long before Jesus started His ministry. He announced the coming of the Messiah but it makes sense that he would not have had the priviledged information of Jesus being the Messiah until He made that evident to all through signs and wonders and healings.

John in prison would’ve heard all these marvelous things occuring outside of his prison walls and would naturally be anxious to confirm that this was indeed the awaited Messiah that he knew was to come and that he had prepared the way for. As he sends his disciples to Jesus, he not only sends an inquiry but also sends his disciples to recognize in Jesus the awaited Messiah. If the disciples had already known and accepted Jesus as such - they would’ve confirmed to John that “yes He is the Messiah”. John had to send them. This became the lessening of his importance and the increasing of Jesus’ importance in the eyes of John’s disciples.

But, what do I know…I’m just a mangy dog.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, John knew long before that. Please note St. Luke’s Gospel account:

[41]And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [42] And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. [43] And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [44] For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. [45] And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

The preface for St. John the Baptist’s nativity notes that:

His birth brought great rejoicing; even in the womb he leapt for joy, so near was man’s salvation.

Thus, he knew.

 

[Moro_Rock]

Also, John was 'the friend of the bridegroom ’ or the best man . Some of John’s disciples were convinced that John was the Messiah hence unintentionally John the Baptist may have been setting up a rival camp to the true Messiah . Hence God allowed John to be imprisoned and taken off the scene to avoid confusion among his followers.
After John had been in the dungeon for some time he sent some of his disciples to ask Jesus " Art thou He who is to come or should we look for another ?" Jesus sent back the answer " the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk and blessed is he who is not scandalised in me " This statement was for the benefit of John’s disciples since John already had no doubts about who the Messiah was.
After his death Jesus paid this tribute to him " there is none greater born of woman "

 

[Benadam]

I think John the Baptist’s time in prison was his final suffering final testing. He wasn’t filled with the knowledge of the Holy Spirit in prison imo. All that was a memory that he was holding onto. :twocents:

 

[PJM]

=docsuth;7098381]John the Baptist was a relative of Jesus and knew him. When he baptized Jesus it is not clear whether he heard the voice saying that Jesus was the son of the Father but it seems reasonable to assume that he did. There are other examples of John apparently knowing who Jesus was. Then why did he, while in prison, send his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the Messiah?

*I wasn’t there BUT:

I suspect it was for the sake of John’s followers who were at best reluctant to leave him and convert to Jesus.*

 

[JM3]

John the Baptist was a relative of Jesus and knew him. When he baptized Jesus it is not clear whether he heard the voice saying that Jesus was the son of the Father but it seems reasonable to assume that he did. There are other examples of John apparently knowing who Jesus was.** Then why did he, while in prison, send his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the Messiah?**

John the Baptist knew Jesus as a relative, but not as the Messiah. As he says in John 1:31-34.

He sent disciples to Jesus, because Jesus was not acting like the Messiah that the Jews were expecting.

 

[benedictgal]

John the Baptist knew Jesus as a relative, but not as the Messiah. As he says in John 1:31-34.

He sent disciples to Jesus, because Jesus was not acting like the Messiah that the Jews were expecting.

However, you are not taking into account the Gospel account of St. Luke wherein St. John the Baptist leaps in St. Elizabeth’s womb atht emoment of the visitation, nor the Church’s own preface of St. John the Baptist.

Jesus knew that John was fully aware of the Scriptures that is why he quoted Isaiah to John’s disciples. Furthermore, it was not so much that St. John needed confirmation; rather, it was, as other’s pointed out, for his own disciples. Remember, too, that John said, “He mus increase, while I must decrease.”

 

[JM3]

However, you are not taking into account the Gospel account of St. Luke wherein St. John the Baptist leaps in St. Elizabeth’s womb atht emoment of the visitation, nor the Church’s own preface of St. John the Baptist.

Jesus knew that John was fully aware of the Scriptures that is why he quoted Isaiah to John’s disciples. Furthermore, it was not so much that St. John needed confirmation; rather, it was, as other’s pointed out, for his own disciples. Remember, too, that John said, “He mus increase, while I must decrease.”

You are reading too much into it.

Luke 1:41 - And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the child leaped in her womb;

Luke 1:44 - “For behold, when the voice of** your **greeting came to my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.”

 

[benedictgal]

You are reading too much into it.

Luke 1:41 - And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the child leaped in her womb;

Luke 1:44 - “For behold, when the voice of** your **greeting came to my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.”

No, I am not. If you say that I am, then you might as well say that the Church is. If you read the preface for St. John the Baptist, you will find (as I posted in my initial response):

His birth brought great rejoicing; even in the womb he leapt for joy, so near was man’s salvation.

This preface shows up in the Masses for St. John the Baptist (Nativity and Martyrdom). Are you then saying that the Church is reading too much into this?

 

[NotWorthy]

John’s sending of his disciples strikes me, in light of John 1:28-34, as feigning ignorance so that his disciples would go and learn directly from Jesus, then decide for themselves.

“He must increase and I must decrease”.

You are correct, Po, John wanted his Disciples to follow Jesus.

 

[JM3]

No, I am not. If you say that I am, then you might as well say that the Church is. If you read the preface for St. John the Baptist, you will find (as I posted in my initial response):
This preface shows up in the Masses for St. John the Baptist (Nativity and Martyrdom). Are you then saying that the Church is reading too much into this?

CCC 717 - John was “filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb” by Christ Himself

This does not mean that John knew Jesus as the Messiah before Jesus was baptized.

The Gospel does not say it, nor does the preface (P61).

 

[benedictgal]

CCC 717 - John was “filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb” by Christ Himself

This does not mean that John knew Jesus as the Messiah before Jesus was baptized.

The Gospel does not say it, nor does the preface (P61).

Actually, it does. Why else would he jump for joy? Why else would his own mother have called Mary, the “mother of my Lord”? Do you really think that St. Elizabeth would not have told her own son? The preface is very clear.

 

[JM3]

Actually, it does. Why else would he jump for joy? Why else would his own mother have called Mary, the “mother of my Lord”? Do you really think that St. Elizabeth would not have told her own son? The preface is very clear.

Are you saying that John the Baptist lied in John 1:33?

 

[NHInsider]

I don’t think it is impossible to reconcile the Spirit-filled infant John responding to the presence of the Infant Jesus with the unfamiliarity of the adults thirty years later. John undoubtably was orphaned very young. How much Elizabeth and Zechariah were able to tell John, and how much he remembered, is difficult to say. John grew up “in the wilderness” (many scholars believe he probably grew up in the Essene community), and even if he spent his childhood in his own village, that was not close to Nazereth. It’s not like the two saw each other at family reunions all through their youths.

John knew that he was preparing the way for the Messiah, and when he saw Jesus, the Spirit prompted him to baptize Him in preparation for His ministry. But what he expected Messiah to be would have been based on what he had learned from his rabbis, and we know that most were expecting a warrior-king like David. Rotting in Herod’s dungeon, John reflected on his own life and on what he had been taught - and sends his disciples to inquire of Jesus. He may well have been setting up the transfer of those disciples to Jesus, but it could also have been a serious question - are you, really, the One? And Jesus’ confirming response clarifies, citing the Messianic promises - His mission is about spiritual conquests, not political ones.

 

[steve53]

"Rotting in Herod’s dungeon, John reflected on his own life and on what he had been taught - and sends his disciples to inquire of Jesus. He may well have been setting up the transfer of those disciples to Jesus, but it could also have been a serious question - are you, really, the One? And Jesus’ confirming response clarifies, citing the Messianic promises - His mission is about spiritual conquests, not political ones.

John hardly was rotting away in a dungeon. Antipas kept him in a cistern in the high palace of Macherus, yes, but likely treated him quite well. Antipas had a great respect for holy men of any stripe, and he was very superstitious. John the Baptist was likely arrested for the trouble he could potentially cause Antipas’ soldiers as he and his generals prepared his army for an invasion of Nabotea (Arabia). John’s home base in Perea, by the Jordan, was not far off.

In Mark it is suggested that Antipas talked with John on several occasions. Antipas had just lost his brother Philip, and he was undertaking a major military operation for the first time- and he was on his own. Did John counsel him to a certain extent?! Antipas allowed John’s disciples to visit him, and likely under loose guard John could walk around the lower city of Macherus.

When Antipas’ wife Herodias visited Macherus and brought along Salome, a birthday party was held and Salome danced provocatively for Antipas and his generals. Antipas was pleased and promised Salome anything. Consulting with Herodias, Salome demanded the head of John the Baptist. This was a victory for Herodias, as John had been a thorn in the side of Herodias for years, with Antipas refusing to do anything about it.

Mark confirms that Antipas was sad at having to execute the holy man, but Antipas had no choice, having made a promise to the young girl, and in front of his generals…

source Hagan “Year of the Passover”