John the Baptist question - Pilate and Josephus

[BartholomewB]

“But look how Josephus describes John’s life and death. Firstly he describes the death of King Philip in AD 34. Then he tells us that to marry Philip’s wife, Herod divorced his first wife, who was the daughter of King Aretas of Petra.”

The author of the article is seriously distorting what Josephus says in Book 18 of the Jewish Antiquities. The Philip who died in AD 34 was the tetrarch of Gaulanitis (modern Golan), the one who built the city named in the New Testament as “Caesarea Philippi”. This Philip wasn’t the husband of Herodias. He was the husband of Salome, Herodias’s daughter.

Herodias’s first husband, named “Philip” in Mark 6:17, is only ever called “Herod” in Josephus.

 

[Godfollower]

Thanks Wesrock, you do answer my questions often.
My faith has been wavering as of late, from claims like Mythicism or Ehrman’s gospel criticism. I keep on trying- I keep close to the Church and the sacraments. Pray often, ask for this doubt to be taken away.
Please pray for me!
Thanks

I will pray for you. But, if I may, I would also like to make a suggestion: if you’re struggling with your faith because of questions about the historicity of Jesus, maybe avoid those questions for a little while. Focus on the Faith itself, and why it makes sense.

I say this because the internet is filled with people claiming all sorts of things about Biblical times, and their veracity is not always obvious (there are websites that claim to explain Catholicism that actually are proselytizing against it; there are “Jesus scholars” who don’t believe in Jesus’ divinity (or even His historicity); and there are many, many, many stories out there that seem to challenge the truth of the Bible but actually aren’t true — but somehow the articles correcting them don’t ever get the same attention. If these stories are adversely affecting your faith, then maybe take a break from them for a while. Focus on understanding your faith, and come back to the “all Christians are idiots” stories later, when you’ve refreshed your foundation.

I have found over time that all of the news articles challenging my faith are untrue, even if they appear true at first. So, if they’re hurting you, maybe it’s best in the long run to ignore them.

 

[BartholomewB]

I would recommend John Hagan’s “Year of the Passover” and “Fires of Rome” for a guide in this regard.

Who is John Hagan? Apart from the titles of his two books, Year of the Passover and Fires of Rome, I haven’t been able to find out anything about him on the internet. Is he a historian? Is he an academic in some other field?

 

[NotThatHarvey]

The speculation can be taken further.

We know from Josephus that the daughter of Herodias was married to Herod Philip probably not long after she left Rome and Herod II to become Herod Antipas’ wife in the Galilee.

Josephus also tells us that the Tetrarch Herod Philip died in AD 34.
We know from Mark and Josephus that it was Salome who danced provocatively in front of Herod Antipas and his generals, and so brought about the death of John the Baptist.

So putting things together…

Can we assume that the death of John the Baptist came sometime after AD 34- AFTER Salome became a widow and after the official mourning period for Herod Philip?

Women married very young in those days. It is unlikely that Herodias would have allowed her daughter to dance in front of hardened soldiers if she was a virgin. If Salome was older and a widow just out of mourning, and “in her cups”, well, it might be another story.

 

[BartholomewB]

We know from Mark and Josephus that it was Salome who danced provocatively in front of Herod Antipas and his generals, and so brought about the death of John the Baptist.

Not exactly. We know it from Mark and Matthew, but not from Josephus, who never mentions the birthday party. All he says is that “because of Herod’s suspicions, he [John the Baptist] was brought in chains to Machaerus, the stronghold that we have previously mentioned, and there put to death” (p. 85 of the Loeb edition). Josephus says nothing to connect either Herodias or Salome with the arrest and execution of John the Baptist, which he attributes solely to Herod Antipas’ suspicions that John’s preaching might lead to unrest, sedition, or an uprising (p. 83).

 

[Dan_Defender]

I don’t think Herodias would have any hesitations about her daughter dancing while a virgin. All indications are that she was evil and hated St John. Hatred blinds people. Besides, I imagine the grand hall of the palace would be big, so the soldiers posted at the entrance would not be close to the show, which was meant for Herod’s important guests.

 

[NotThatHarvey]

Of course. I took the liberty of melding the two together.

 

[NotThatHarvey]

I disagree. Herodias was not only the granddaughter of Herod the Great, but Herod the Great specifically betrothed her to Herod II- his son whom he wanted to inherit his kingdom (Augustus had given Herod that right). Also, she was the daughter of another son of Herod the Great, Aristobolus, who was of Royal Asamonean blood.
Herodias lived in Rome, was a very wealthy person, and traveled in the highest social circles. Her mother was a very close friend of Augustus’ wife, Livia, who many think was a real power behind the thrown.
So to think that Herodias would tolerate her virgin daughter dancing in front of hardened military men is hard to accept. She would be watching her like a hawk- and a young virginal Salome probably had her own bodyguard.

 

[NotThatHarvey]

Yes- parts of it.

But let me just add that a careful reading of Josephus actually validates far more of the New Testament than it casts a shadow on- as Hagan goes into.

 

[Mintaka]

Reading anything about the Herod family, it is not hard to believe anything they got up to… Like one of the Caesars said, “It’s better to be Herod’s pig than his son.”

That said, dancing was a Middle Eastern accomplishment, not something that only slaves did. It was even something that maidens did as part of certain Temple processional holidays (dancing and singing out to the fields, and displaying oneself as marriageable and fun).

So the only iffy part was doing it in a public sort of private place, and it could have been played off as a “new woman” thing, like having a philosophy hobby. There is even a sick sort of connection to the Book of Esther.