John the Baptist was not Kosher?

[Nine_Two]

This thread reminds me of the cicada pie I once (at first unknowingly) had.

 

[StrawberryJam]

This thread reminds me of the cicada pie I once (at first unknowingly) had.

Was it a good or bad thing to experience this?

 

[StrawberryJam]

This. At least I have been told the same thing, that there are kosher locusts.
And I totally agree with you on the “ugh” factor. The idea of eating insects makes me kinda queasy.
Actually, I feel the same way about eating an egg that I have not personally inspected for possible blood spots…I just can’t get past the idea. If I didn’t check it out, its not going in my mouth. Yeah, I know…not a usual trait for a Methodist, is it???

You may be a Methodist with unique leanings. That should not make you shy to talk about them.
I think we can all have these kind of leanings.

 

[Nine_Two]

Was it a good or bad thing to experience this?

It was a surprise. We were in the Highlands of Thailand, visiting the hill tribes, I believe it was a Karen village we had stopped at after a long day of hiking. Everyone in the group was famished, they gave us supper and then they brought out a pie for dessert. I thought they were peanuts at first, then they brought out bowls full of the “special ingredient” for us to help ourselves to.

 

[StrawberryJam]

It was a surprise. We were in the Highlands of Thailand, visiting the hill tribes, I believe it was a Karen village we had stopped at after a long day of hiking. Everyone in the group was famished, they gave us supper and then they brought out a pie for dessert. I thought they were peanuts at first, then they brought out bowls full of the “special ingredient” for us to help ourselves to.

I do believe that they must have given you the best they could offer as a visitor and guest in their land.
Was it tolerable? Does it make you think more about John the Baptist than you did before?
Do you have any theological insight on the scriptrues and the meaning? Is it literal?
Is it something that requires more thought than a dry reading?
What do we or can we learn from this?

 

[Kaninchen]

I am sorry to bring up a topic that may cause the response of “Ugh” over the thoughts I have.
Can you or Valke explain this to me in a way I can understand it better?

I seem to remember that Valke said that ‘we’d forgotten the difference so we don’t eat locusts at all’ or words to that effect - though a few Jews, descended from groups from places like of the Yemen, Iraq etc do, supposedly, know and, occasionally, eat them. In your Saint’s time, that knowledge might have been common, of course.

Being half-German and half-Italian, it’s lore long lost to my family.

 

[Kaninchen]

This. At least I have been told the same thing, that there are kosher locusts.
And I totally agree with you on the “ugh” factor. The idea of eating insects makes me kinda queasy.
Actually, I feel the same way about eating an egg that I have not personally inspected for possible blood spots…I just can’t get past the idea. If I didn’t check it out, its not going in my mouth. Yeah, I know…not a usual trait for a Methodist, is it???

I’ve known a few people say exactly the same thing about eggs, so I wonder if there’s some old European tradition, not necessarily connected with religion, about it as well.

 

[Nine_Two]

I do believe that they must have given you the best they could offer as a visitor and guest in their land.
Was it tolerable? Does it make you think more about John the Baptist than you did before?
Do you have any theological insight on the scriptrues and the meaning? Is it literal?
Is it something that requires more thought than a dry reading?
What do we or can we learn from this?

I’ve never thought about it much. I suppose we can learn that cicada’s taste like peanuts and it is ok to eat them.

 

[Shin]

From what I’ve read there are several varities of locust that are kosher, but which ones they are has been lost in the mists of time…

And so they are nowadays all generally written off as non-kosher!

Not a popular enough food I guess!

 

[DaveBj]

The words are spelled the same. That does not make them the same words.

John

The English words are the same. The word in Hebrew (arbeh) refers to the insect, not the plant. Likewise the Greek word (akris).

For the record, crickets, katydids, and grasshoppers were also kosher (Lev. 11:22).

DaveBj

 

[prodromos]

The English words are the same.

What English words are you talking about? I’ve only referred to the Greek.

The word in Hebrew (arbeh) refers to the insect, not the plant.

There are no manuscripts of the Gospels of Matthew and Mark in Hebrew, so I am at a loss as to why you would mention this. Also, as far as I know the Hebrew word does not have another meaning besides “locust” while the Greek word, as I have pointed out, does.

Likewise the Greek word (akris).

Below is a link, and quote of the dictionary entry of the Lexicon of Medieval Greek Demotic Literature
komvos.edu.gr/dictonlineplsql/simple_search.display_full_lemma?the_lemma_id=878&target_dict=2
ακρίδα (II), ακρίς η. H κορυφή του βλασταριού: ακρίδας ου σιτεύομαι ουδ’ αγαπώ βοτάνας Προδρ. II 103. μτγν. ουσ. ακρίς]
This is the meaning of the word in Matt 3:4 and Mark 1:6 as understood by the Orthodox Church in Greece, the Church which reads the text of the New Testament in its original tongue, not in translation. If you believe you know the Greek language better than the people who live and breath the language of the Gospels then I don’t know if there is much more I can say to you

John

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Insects and worms are not Kosher I am told.

Not familliar with the Kosher dietary rules and regs, my first thought was John the Baptist. The figure that strikes up mental images of the type that could easily endure reality television shows.
My second thought, was I thought he was Jewish.
This led me to wonder if there were multiple mini reformations going on prior to his birth, or after his following started.
But, I digress.

The narrative makes mention of him eating locusts. But, also honey.
I am guessing honey is or can be Kosher, but not sure there.

Could this also be a way of saying someone is sugar coating something that is bad?
Locust, bad.
Honey, good.
Cover a bad thing up with honey and no one will notice they are swallowing the bad?

Not sure if the bible is intending a literal or some other type of reading of this passage.

Or both, or some of both.

Help me out here if you can.

Lev.11

Leviticus 11:22
Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

The word kosher does not occur in the bible. You are probably refering to clean and unclean as set forth in Leviticus. As Lev.11:22 points out locusts are clean.

 

[Nine_Two]

The word kosher does not occur in the bible. You are probably refering to clean and unclean as set forth in Leviticus. As Lev.11:22 points out locusts are clean.

The word “kosher” means those things which are ok to eat under Jewish dietary law.

Although thank you for finding a bit that shows it was indeed a later development.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The word “kosher” means those things which are ok to eat under Jewish dietary law.

Although thank you for finding a bit that shows it was indeed a later development.

Kosher (kashrus) is a whole set of rules that cover everything from clean and unclean to how food is prepared and stored even what utensils it is ok to eat with. It cover much more than just the food.

Mark7
4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

I believe that this is what Jesus is talking about here in Mark 7

 

[mark_a]

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that, ‘thou shalt not eat locusts’.

I thought there was a prohibition of eating swarming insects, which was also referred to by Jesus when he denounced “straining the gnat and swallowing the camel”.

 

[sojo]

Haven’t read every post in this thread but believe you all have learned that the Torah permitted 4 kinds of Locust as kosher? The exact species are not totally understood at this modern age, but I assume a devote Jew such as John the Baptizer knew which they were and adhered to the dietary laws. And honey is clearly kosher.

From the Torah (Parshat Shemini):

"Every flying insect that uses four legs for walking shall be avoided by you. The only flying insects with four walking legs that you may eat are those which have knees extending above their feet, [using these longer legs] to hop on the ground. Among these you may only eat members of the red locust family, the yellow locust family, the spotted gray locust family and the white locust family. All other flying insects with four feet [for walking] must be avoided by you.

Also from the Mishnah:

“Any kind of grasshopper that has four walking legs, four wings, two jumping legs and whose wings cover the greater part of its body is kosher.”

Sorry if I’m redundant.

 

[sojo]

Oh, and as some mentioned, due to the fact that the later Rabbis could not exactly distinguish which locust was kosher and which wasn’t, they figured it was safest just to ban them all. But again, I trust John knew exactly what he was doing/eating at that time.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I want to apologize for being so busy and so distracted when I pop over here to post. I had not even noticed replies to the thread I had started. Bad on me.
Reading the replies has been informative, interesting, and I admit even made a smile come about.
Please be patient with me as I think about all the information given to me, so I can bug you for more information. Pun directly intended.

 

[Zooey]

I’ve known a few people say exactly the same thing about eggs, so I wonder if there’s some old European tradition, not necessarily connected with religion, about it as well.

Now that you mention it, I did learn to cook from my grandmother, who was first-generation to be born in America…That’s very possible.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Now that you mention it, I did learn to cook from my grandmother, who was first-generation to be born in America…That’s very possible.

Got me to thinking about this also.

Never learned from family how to cook, yet I do it and admit I like doing it.

Have been trying to cook mainly with the plants I grow myself, yet I am not 100 there yet. Trying to.

Better research this egg stuff. I admit to also having a problem with other food products.
I think it is just quirky bits of my personality, but now I am curious if there could be more to it than that. It is very probable it could be there is more to it.