John the Baptist

[JRKH]

By the way, I don’t know if some of you are deliberately ignoring the point I am trying to make. I am not saying John was not born free from original sin. In fact I am inclined to believe that.
The issue I am debating is whether Catholics are BOUND to believe it upon pain of sin.
I contend we are not. At least Sirach seems to contend the opposite. So let’s be clear on the issue. Its whether we are obligated to believe or not and not whether John was born free from original sin.

I think that you make a good point here. Sometimes in the “heat of discussion” we can become confused as to exactly what the other fellow’s point is.

It’s good to try to clarify this.

Peace
James

 

[thistle]

Okay. You don’t have to wait several days.

My friend is a 75 year old Redemptorist priest and was the one who took me through the RCIA program and into the Catholic Church 20 years ago. We have kept in touch since even though I moved countries.

Well regarding our topic he has given me a mighty kick on the butt, told me I am wrong and I should admit this publicly. If I have issues I think are contentious he says I should approach him first before diving in.

According to him Catholics are bound to believe that John The Baptist was born free from original sin. My inclination to believe that therefore has moved to fully accepting it.

My priest friend’s reply ( I’ll give you the relevant part) and not everything he said to me:

"John was conceived in original sin but while in his mother’s womb the Spirit came to remove original sin and filled him with the life of grace.
Catholics are not free to believe John was conceived free from original sin (which would contradict SS which says “He will be filled with the Holy Spirit” not “he is filled with the Holy Spirit.” Neither can Catholics believe that John was born in the state of original sin. This would again contradict SS which says John was filled with the Holy Spirit from his Mother’s womb.

To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be free from original sin."

And so to Sirach2 I give you publicly my apologies (you were right and I was wrong) and to any others who I irritated with my stubbornness.
I have again learned something.

I wish you all a Blessed Christmas.

 

[Sirach2]

Halleluia - Praise God!

I just returned from holy mass and prayed for this situation to be resolved. When I have a free moment with my thoughts a bit more collected, I will strive to share what I learned in prayer, since we are all on the same page. I’m very joyful just now and want to take it all in!!!

What I noted in your post, JRKH, was that the rosary is a private devotion. I agree, and I also agree that private apparitions or devotions are not binding on the faithful. However, this matter is* public revelation* written for us in sacred scripture. True, God’s word needs to be interpreted by lawful authority, which has now been done.

 

[JRKH]

Thistle,

Thank you for your gracious post.
It appears that I too must apologize and retract my statements about having latitude on the matter of believing and I do publicly retract my former position.

Please do thank your priestly friend for his help.

Peace
James

 

[Cruikshank_s]

Hymn from First Vespers, Nativity of St. John the Baptist:

O let thy power, holy John, now loosen
Tongues which are fetter’d, cleanse our lips polluted,
That we thy servants all thy wondrous actions
May sound forth meetly.

…]

Thou, while yet hidden, in the womb still cradled.
knewest thy Monarch, in his bridal chamber:
Whence the two mothers, through their children’s merits,
Mysteries utter’d.

Happy to see all is now well! When in doubt, look to the Liturgy! It is wonderful to see us stubborn Catholics reconciled, especially here on the internet where it’s so easy to become obstinate until the end! Praised be God!

Sancte Joannes Bapista, Ora pro nobis!

 

[Sirach2]

Thank you for that hymn, Cruikshank. I was especially moved by this part:

Thou, while yet hidden, in the womb still cradled.
knewest thy Monarch, in his bridal chamber:
Whence the two mothers, through their children’s merits,
**Mysteries utter’d. **

Did you know that today’s gospel was the story of Zachary and the visitation by Angel Gabriel? I’ve had this in my mind all day, wondering how I could write some thoughts about it. Yesterday, I typed a response that I had promised to share, but I felt my words did not give due justice to this beautiful mystery, and scrapped it. How difficult it must have been for our evangelists to be selective in what they wrote, though they had more profund spiritual knowledge behind their words due to their intimacy with Jesus.

Yet something draws me to write, nevertheless, and just trust the Holy Spirit to fill in the blanks with His anointed inspirations.

I believe the mystery of the Visitation was God’s way of fulfilling the prophecy His Angel Gabriel made in separate revelations to Mary and Zachary. When Mary and Elizabeth came together in that awesome moment, the Holy Spirit blessed each of them with confirmation of their prophesies.

After Mary received the Annunciation, we read that she left in haste to assist Elizabeth. She would have been only a few days pregnant, and not having any evidence whatsoever that what Gabriel announced had already taken place. He only told her, “You shall conceive…” (future tense, no date given)

Same with Elizabeth whose husband was told that their child will be filled with the Holy Spirit in her womb. (future tense, no evidence)

We know that any time an Angel is sent with prophecy, it is fulfilled. Elizabeth realized it when the babe in her womb leapt for joy, confirming the prophecy to Zachary months earlier. I believe there was a special anointed “knowing” that she burst forth with, “How have I deserved that the mother of My Lord has come to me?”

And if Mary had no knowledge of having already conceived, she truly realized the fulfillment in that moment when Elizabeth confirmed it to her, for her Divine Son was already bestowing the Spirit upon His Forerunner. Years later, St. John would proclaim from his understanding of this miraculous moment that “He who is to come after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

In meditating on this “knowing” of Elizabeth’s, I recall that Simeon had a similar “knowing” when Mary brought the child into the Temple. Thereto, another prophecy made to this holy man was fulfilled as promised, that he would see His Messiah before he died. It is a profound blessing that our minds cannot fathom or explain, but our hearts will find joy in the bestowal of it, should God be pleased to grant it to us.

May God bless all of you with wonder and awe as you reflect on this mystery.

 

[Vouthon]

I was overjoyed to find this thread. I have always believed that John the Baptist was born free from the stain of original sin, but have been shot down by others in the past when I proclaimed this. I feel a great sense of happiness. I love John the Baptist so much!

 

[Sirach2]

In your deep love for him, Vouthon, I feel certain you were providentially led to find this thread. I’m really happy for you, and I pray that, as you reflect upon his life more and more, you will be blessed most abundantly with insights into his holiness.

 

[Vouthon]

In your deep love for him, Vouthon, I feel certain you were providentially led to find this thread. I’m really happy for you, and I pray that, as you reflect upon his life more and more, you will be blessed most abundantly with insights into his holiness.

God Bless you brother Sirach! Amen! Thank you very much for your prayer. May St John the Baptist enlighten and guide the lives of many more souls towards Christ his Lord, whom he so humbly admitted “must increase, while I must decrease!” What an incredible “burning lamp” of God’s light as Jesus called him! The greatest of all prophets and of all men born of woman apart from Our Lord himself! The Great Forerunner of the Emmanuel!