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elvisman
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The fact that you don’t believe in something and that you lack faith in God doesn’t make it untrue. It’s not true because I believe it – I believe it because it’s true.**
- Status
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elvisman
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Nevertheless, this spiritually adulterous nation in your eyes is the nation that God uses to manifest His glory in the sight of all the other nations. (Ezek. 20:41) That’s odd, isn’t it
As I already indicated – the Old wine and wineskins has been replaced by the New Wine and the new wineskins. The bride of Christ is his body – which is his Church.
Ben_Masada:
You are promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology which has been classified by some Scholars as Antisemitism.
AHHH . . . I was wondering when you were going to play the “Anti-Semitism” card.
**You’re absolutely wrong – I’m not an Anti-Semite. **
As a Catholic, I understand that what we believe in stems from Judaism and that the very first Christians were Jews. False accusations like this are usually the cry of the truly desperate person who has nothing of substance left to add to the conversation.
Now, open the dictionary and look up the word “fulfilled” It does not mean changed. Besides, you have forgotten verses 18 and 19. After Jesus did his part in the fulfilling of the Law and died, did the heavens and earth pass? No, they are still here. So, nothing has been abolished. The whole Law is still here for us to fulfill it.
And to teach them to the letter as Jesus said. (Mat. 5:18,19)
When something if fulfilled – it is changed forever.
Ben_Masada:
That’s a non-Jewish interpolation to promote the Christ of Paul.
No - it’s a*** fact*****.**
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elvisman
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Good! You are saying that Jesus was a blasphemer, because what you claim he said was not true because Jesus was a Jewish man and not a Greek. There is no Greek Mythology in Judaism.
NOPE** – I’m saying that it WOULD be blasphemous if it weren’t true - but it is.**
Ben_Masada:
This is Pauline rhetoric.
The fact that you hate Paul doesn’t make it untrue.
This is no blasphemy. You are so full of hatred for the Jewish People that you don’t think anymore about what you say.
As I stated before – I have no hatred towards the Jewish people. As a Catholic, I appreciate the fact that our Lord came from the Jewish people and that I owe them my admiration and respect.
Ben_Masada:
All Pauline rhetoric without any meat to it.
Plenty** of meat – for those who have faith in God and not themselves.**
In that case, there is contradiction, because every timehe sent his disciples in a mission to preach about the kingdom of God, he would warn them NOT to go the way of the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5,6)
Not true. In this instance, he wanted them to preach to the LOST people of Israel because THAT is where it was to begin. Later, they were sent to everyone (Mark 16:15).
Ben_Masada:
This is a message of Hellenistic Gentiles. The real Scriptures that Jesus used to handle and call them Word of God says otherwise.
It’s the message of the Gospel – John was a Jew.
Ben_Masada:
If Jesus was born to be king, what happened? He was born poor, lived 33 years of his life poor, and died poor. The only thing he got for being king was that plate on the top of his cross. You must be kidding!
He IS the King. The problem is that you lack the Faith in God to understand what he meant by “King.”
**Jesus didn’t come to set up a mere earthly kingdom but an eternal one. Stop trying to make God do things by your rules and allow him to do it HIS way. **
**That’s why the Jewish people lost their claim. The parable of the wedding feast (Matt 22:2-14; Lk 14:16-24) is a CLEAR indication that Jesus changed things – to take from what was given to the Jewish people and give it to the Body of Christ. You are a perfect living, breathing example of why this happened.
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Ben_Masada
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I don’t lack faith in God; I lack faith in your scriptures which Jesus never referred to them as Word of God. That’s all.
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Ben_Masada
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Ben_Masada
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elvisman
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That’s because he WAS the Word made flesh:
John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. ***
All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;*
That’s not what Jesus said. Don’t add lies to your poor knowledge of the scriptures.
He said (Matt. 5:17):
**“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill.” **This doesn’t mean he DIDN’T come to change things – he DID.
***Prove *****that Moses spoke to God. *****Prove *****that he received the commandments on stone tablets. *****Prove ***that there was an Ark.
I’m not bringing Greek mythology into it. There are all sorts of mythological stories about a woman bearing a son –*** some***** of them are even about virgins bearing a son. **
The difference is – NONE of them have the four criteria:
Archaeological evidence, manuscript evidence, prophecy and the statistical probability of fulfilled prophecy.
Then you know nothing of the New Testament Scriptures. Ever hear of the Great Commission?
Matt 28:19-20** emphatically states:**
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
Luke 24:46-48
**Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day **
**and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. **
**You are witnesses of these things. **
**He didn’t write Greek mythology. John was a Jew writing about what he witnessed. He was the son of Zebedee, who was from the tribe of Levi, according to tradition and his mother, Mary from the tribe of Judah. **His Jewish name means: "the Lord has worked grace".
Again - Jesus didn’t come to set up a mere earthly kingdom but an eternal one:
**John 18:36
***“My kingdom ***does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.”
**
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Ben_Masada
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elvisman
Regular Member Join Date: June 15, 2004
Posts: 2,367
Religion: Hard Core Catholic
Re: John, The Immerser
That’s because he WAS the Word made flesh:
John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
Greek Mythology.
That’s not what Jesus said. Don’t add lies to your poor knowledge of the scriptures.
He said (Matt. 5:17):
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill.” This doesn’t mean he DIDN’T come to change things – he DID.
Read Matthew 5:19 and stop contradicting your own god.
Prove that Moses spoke to God. Prove that he received the commandments on stone tablets. Prove that there was an Ark.
It is all written. When I ask you to prove something, you could at least show me where it is written.
I’m not bringing Greek mythology into it. There are all sorts of mythological stories about a woman bearing a son – some of them are even about virgins bearing a son.
The difference is – NONE of them have the four criteria:
Archaeological evidence, manuscript evidence, prophecy and the statistical probability of fulfilled prophecy.
Bring the statistical probability of fulfilled prophecy. I’ll be satisfied with that. Even that you can’t..
Then you know nothing of the New Testament Scriptures. Ever hear of the Great Commission?
Matt 28:19-20 emphatically states:
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
That was not from Jesus. It was someone else speaking about Jesus.
Luke 24:46-48
Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day
and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things.
**What kind of witness? Show me at least one who was an eyewitness to the resurrection. **
He didn’t write Greek mythology. John was a Jew writing about what he witnessed. He was the son of Zebedee, who was from the tribe of Levi, according to tradition and his mother, Mary from the tribe of Judah. His Jewish name means: “the Lord has worked grace”.
Start with chapter one. Greek Mythology from the very first page. Only blind faith can’t see that clear.
Again - Jesus didn’t come to set up a mere earthly kingdom but an eternal one:
John 18:36
“My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.”
There is nothing eternal but God. Whoever is born is supposed to die.
Regular Member Join Date: June 15, 2004
Posts: 2,367
Religion: Hard Core Catholic
Re: John, The Immerser
That’s because he WAS the Word made flesh:
John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
Greek Mythology.
That’s not what Jesus said. Don’t add lies to your poor knowledge of the scriptures.
He said (Matt. 5:17):
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill.” This doesn’t mean he DIDN’T come to change things – he DID.
Read Matthew 5:19 and stop contradicting your own god.
Prove that Moses spoke to God. Prove that he received the commandments on stone tablets. Prove that there was an Ark.
It is all written. When I ask you to prove something, you could at least show me where it is written.
I’m not bringing Greek mythology into it. There are all sorts of mythological stories about a woman bearing a son – some of them are even about virgins bearing a son.
The difference is – NONE of them have the four criteria:
Archaeological evidence, manuscript evidence, prophecy and the statistical probability of fulfilled prophecy.
Bring the statistical probability of fulfilled prophecy. I’ll be satisfied with that. Even that you can’t..
Then you know nothing of the New Testament Scriptures. Ever hear of the Great Commission?
Matt 28:19-20 emphatically states:
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
That was not from Jesus. It was someone else speaking about Jesus.
Luke 24:46-48
Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day
and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things.
**What kind of witness? Show me at least one who was an eyewitness to the resurrection. **
He didn’t write Greek mythology. John was a Jew writing about what he witnessed. He was the son of Zebedee, who was from the tribe of Levi, according to tradition and his mother, Mary from the tribe of Judah. His Jewish name means: “the Lord has worked grace”.
Start with chapter one. Greek Mythology from the very first page. Only blind faith can’t see that clear.
Again - Jesus didn’t come to set up a mere earthly kingdom but an eternal one:
John 18:36
“My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.”
There is nothing eternal but God. Whoever is born is supposed to die.
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elvisman
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As always – your posts are filled with arrogance and opinion but not much fact. When you don’t have a valid comeback, you dry, “Greek Mythology”.
Huh??
**Jesus was speaking about fulfilling the prophecies – and he DID that. **
**It is all written as well and I ****HAVE **provided the verses. AGAIN - you lose . . .
Read and weep, my angry friend:
Mathematician ***Peter Stoner found that taking just 8 messianic prophecies of the over 300 that Jesus fulfilled - the chance that any man might have fulfilled all 8 prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th power.” That is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 (1 in 100 quadrillion!)*. That’s one million more times certain that DNA.
This doesn’t even speak to the other 292 or so other prophecies that he fulfilled.**
So, you’re saying that the Gospels can’t be the truth because Jesus didn’t write them??
That’s about the silliest and most ignorant thing I’ve ever heard.
MOST** of what people in history did wasn’t written by the participants – and that included the Old Testament.**
Mary Magdalene and John the Apostle.
They SAW Jesus die on the cross and saw him after he rose.
Ummm, which story in Greek Mythology? Give me the text from that story.
And Jesus is God. Jesus DID die – but he rose from the dead.
Boy, you aren’t very good at making a compelling argument, are you?
This is too easy . . .
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Ben_Masada
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elvisman
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Like I said before - there are many pagan religions that have elements of Christian symbolisms, and vice versa. This doesn’t mean anything because the same can be said of Judaism - but that does not discredit Judaism.
These verses are the truth - but not as you twist them to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).
Read slowly* so you can understand this:
Jesus is the** FULFILLMENT**** of the Law, ergo, he IS the law. The Mosaic Law was merely a shadow of the things to come - Jesus is the REALITY (Colossians 2:17). Of course not one letter of the Law will be done away with.**
**Yes - ****ALL **assumptions, my confused friend. In your last post, you said:
"Bring the statistical probability of fulfilled prophecy. I’ll be satisfied with that. Even that you can’t."
Well, I DID and you can’t handle it because it doesn’t fit your warped idea of the prophetic fulfillments.
PROVE** it.**
Again - PROVE it. John wrote that Gospel story.
As for the Apostles ALL having abandoned Jesus - they DID - when he was arrested at the Garden of Gethsemane. Some of them were there outside when he was being questioned. And ONE of them returned for the Crucifixion.
**Again – show me which story in Greek Mythology, my angry friend and we’ll discuss it. **
I already showed you: Mary Magdalene and John.
They BOTH watched him die and they BOTH saw him alive again 3 days later.
After that, he appeared to over 500 other witnesses (1 Cor. 15:6).
Ummm . . enough witnesses for you?
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Ben_Masada
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elvisman
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That’s not the same here. You are bringing Greek Mythology to Judaism by picking up a Jew and claiming that he had no human father but God.
**Like I’ve said – show me the Greek mythological story you are referring to. You haven’t been able to do that. **
Ben_Masada:
You are contradicting yourself in terms.
Again – HOW??******
Your probability gives anyone who has a mind to think that Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans. If you read Josephus, he says that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews. What’s the matter with Jesus, just because he was lucky to have a Paul to make a Christ out of him?
There are over 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled – not just about being crucified and I already gave you over 20. I also gave you the statistical probability by a renowned mathematician who gave these prophetic fulfillments a one-in-one-hundred quadrillion chance of happening to one person.
All you have brought to the table is anger, false accusations - and arrogance.
Ben_Masada:
Jesus was Jewish, right? Yes, he was. Is it Jewish to say that a Jew was born of God with a woman? No, it is not. Those and many other things are the un-Jewish things claimed by the gospel writers. You can’t find any better proof.
Again – you don’t like the way God chose to fulfill the messianic prophecies, so you** refuse **to accept it. That’s your problem and that is precisely why the mantle has been passed (or taken from) Judaism to Christianity.
Some of them might have been outside. Peter and John, but both camouflaged. And that they returned for the Crucifixion, you cannot prove a word you say.
Just as you can’t prove otherwise. John’s presence at the cross is documented but you can’t handle it.
Ben_Masada:
Your “my angry friend” is a cop-out to discribe yourself. You are the one angry because you don’t have a better argument to debate with me. The incarnation of God as man is Greek Mythology. Read Deuteronomy 4:15,16.
This is a weak argument that speaks to worshipping idols. This isn’t even what we are discussing. Is that the best you can do?
Ben_Masada:
Do you know whom are you talking to: Jews have a mind of their own. You don’t pocket them with subterfuges. I asked for an eyewitness to the resurrection. You are giving me people who claim to have seen him after his crucifixion. That’s not eyewitness to the resurrection. Do you wanna try again or give up?
I know precisely with whom I’m debating - a heavily opinionated person with not much substance when it comes to so-called “facts”. Look - everybody has a mind of their own. Don’t pull out the “anti-semitism” card every time you can’t argue a point coherently.
Like I said before, if you don’t accept those witnesses as proof of the Resurrection, then give me an eyewitness to Moses and the burning bush or Moses receiving the Commandments from God. There is actually more evidence of the Resurrection and than these 2 events.
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Ben_Masada
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elvisman
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You just can’t produce one myth can you?
More evidence that you’r arguments are nothing more than hot wind - but no substance.
You told me to produce some statistical evidence of the fulfillments of Jesus and I did. Now - because it makes your arguments that much more impotent, you discount the evidence I gave you from a secular source.**
No - it’s God’s way and he did what he did HIS way, not yours and that angers you.
As I indicated before - you are a living, breathing example of why the mantle was taken from the Jews and passed onto Jesus’ Church - the New Jerusalem.
Nope - you just refuse to accept the testimony of hundreds of witnesses.
WRONG.
**The passages you provided were speaking about idol worship - not about God incarnate.
Hey - you brought it up and I simply told you to knock it off. You’re as much a hater of christianity as you claim others are of Judaism - and you prove it everyday with the rubbish you spew.
As far as proving my points - I HAVE proved them but you refuse to believe it.
Well, there’s where you’re wrong and this time, I won’t even use the New Testament to bury you – I’ll use secular history:
Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian on the death of Jesus: **
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
**Julius Africanus, writing around 221 AD, found a reference in the writings of Thallus, who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean around 52 AD, which dealt with the darkness that covered the land during Jesus’s crucifixion: **
**“Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness as an eclipse of the sun–unreasonably, as it seems to me.” [A solar eclipse could not take place during a full moon, as was the case during Passover season.] **
**The plain fact is that, according to HISTORY – Jesus died and the sories of his death are a matter of historical record. Also – you haven’t shown me ANY eyewitnesses to Moses and the burning bush or Moses receiving the Commandments from God – yet you believe THOSE stories. **
**CAN you produce any?? **
I didn’t think so.
Once again, my angry friend - Scriptural, historical and statistical evidence trumps your angry opinions . . .
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Ben_Masada
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elvisman
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Sure it is . . .
**Now - for the FOURTH time: **PRODUCE the myth. WHICH one?
I gave you 11 prophetic fulfillments out of about 300 that Jesus fulfilled.
**I gave you a secular mathematician’s statistical probability of 1 out of 4 quadrillion chances that any 1 person could have fulfilled them all - as Jesus did. **I gave you secular historical text from 2 sources.
A fact is a fact.
Paul, who was the student of Gamaliel - a leading authority in the Sanhedrin in the 1st century - was MUCH more educated than you on OT prophecy and fulfillment. So far - you’ve shown me that you are a rank amateur when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.
**Again - when you can produce ONE eyewitness to the Mosaic accounts of the Burning Bush or the 10 Commandments - you win. **As it now stands - you lose.
Go back and read the text. What Deuteronomy 4:15,16. is referring to are idols made in the likeness of male or female. A person is not an graven idol.
**You don’t even know the Old Testament Scriptures that you are using to debunk Christianity. You are truly an amateur.
PROVE it, Ben. By what authority do uyou claim that these are forgeries. Produce some facts instead of desperate opinions. Show me proof that these are forgeries.
PS - here are some more of the 300 or so prophetic fulfillments of Jesus:
**Soldiers will cast lots for his clothing **
**Psalm 22:18 **
**He will be resurrected after his death **
**Psalm 16:10 **
**Will be given gall and vinegar to drink **
**Psalm 69:21 **
**His side will be pierced with a spear **
**Zechariah 12:10 **
**His hands and feet will be pierced **
**Psalm 22:16 **
**Money returned and used to buy potter’s field **
**Zechariah 11:13 **
**He will be sold for thirty pieces of silver **
**Zechariah 11:12 **
**Betrayed by a close friend **
**Psalm 41:9 **
**He will suffer for others **
**Isaiah 53:4-5 **
**He will be crucified with sinners **
**Isaiah 53:12 **
**He will enter triumphantly into Jerusalem on a young donkey **
Zechariah 9:9
**Will escape into Egypt as a child **
**Hoseah 11:1 **
**Infants will be slaughtered **
Jeremiah 31:15
**Will be born of a virgin **
**Isaiah 7:14 **
**He will be rejected by the Jewish people **
**Isaiah 53:3 **
**Place of birth to be Bethlehem **
**Micah 5:2 **
**Will descend from the tribe of Judah **
**Genesis 49:10 **
**Not a bone of his body will be broken **
Psalm 34: 20
Lastly - The Hebrew name of "Bethlehem" is translated as “House of Bread”.
Jesus is the Bread of Life (John 6:48).
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Ben_Masada
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elvisman
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Hmmmm . . . - maybe this is a language thing with you.
I’ll ask once more before I totally discount your mythoilogy accusation.
Produce the myth or story that you’re referring to. Don’t just say that it is “Greek Mythology”. there are many, MANY Greek myths.
Ummm - yes I gave you 11 to start with, then about 18 more.
**I’ve got a better idea - let’s read Acts 22:3 - **"I (Paul) am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city. At the feet of Gamaliel I was educated strictly in our ancestral law and was zealous for God, just as all of you are today.
NOPE - I already gave you accounts of people who saw him die, then saw his alive afterward.
YOU haven shown me ONE eyewitness account to the Mosaic accounts of the Burning Bush or the 10 Commandments.
WRONG - it is referring to are idols made in the likeness of male or female.
You simply don’t know the scriptures, do you?
*Read it again SLOWLY . . .
Okay - produce the writings of the Fathers that state the historical accounts I gave you are forgeries. If you can’t - you lose.
PS - here are some more of the 300 or so prophetic fulfillments of Jesus:
**There is no name to MANY of the OT prophecies regarding anything - including Israel, yet you believe them to be about Israel. You don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about, do you? This has been the easiest debate I’ve ever had. Some anti-Catholics come at me with some pretty tough questions, but yours have been nothing but you own bitter little opinions.
As for the thousands of others born in the House of Bread (Bethlehem) also being the Bread of life - that might be an interesting challenge except for one thing:
NONE of those other people fulfilled ANY of the 300 prohecies that Jesus did.
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Ben_Masada
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Hey folks, Elvisman is up for congratulations. He won the debate. Now, be sure everyone to bring a branch of victory to Elvis PresleyHmmmm . . . - maybe this is a language thing with you.
I’ll ask once more before I totally discount your mythoilogy accusation.
**Produce the myth or story that you’re referring to. Don’t just say that it is “Greek Mythology”. there are many, MANY **Greek myths.
**Ummm - yes I gave you 11 **to start with, then about 18 more.
**I’ve got a better idea - let’s read Acts 22:3 - **"I (Paul) am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city. At the feet of Gamaliel I was educated strictly in our ancestral law and was zealous for God, just as all of you are today.
NOPE - I already gave you accounts of people who saw him die, then saw his alive afterward.
YOU haven shown me ONE eyewitness account to the Mosaic accounts of the Burning Bush or the 10 Commandments.
WRONG - it is referring to are idols made in the likeness of male or female.
You simply don’t know the scriptures, do you?
**Read it again SLOWLY ***. . .
Okay - produce the writings of the Fathers that state the historical accounts I gave you are forgeries. If you can’t - you lose.
PS - here are some more of the 300 or so prophetic fulfillments of Jesus:
There is no name to MANY of the OT prophecies regarding anything - including Israel, yet you believe them to be about Israel. You don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about, do you? This has been the *easiest *debate I’ve ever had. Some anti-Catholics come at me with some pretty tough questions, but yours have been nothing but you own bitter little opinions.
As for the thousands of others born in the House of Bread (Bethlehem) also being the Bread of life - that might be an interesting challenge except for one thing:
NONE of those other people fulfilled ANY of the 300 prohecies that Jesus did.
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