Joint Declaration On Justification By Faith

[Angainor]

No, Catholics are not expected to bring anything to the table, only to eat what God has brought to the table (metaphorically speaking). We must respond.

I would say you bring your appetite to the table (metaphorically speaking).

I don’t think we are going to get anywhere besides rehashing the fundamental disagreement. That is why I simply posted the link for Protestant101’s research.
The Roman Catholic Church is very careful to state that even this “something other” is made possibly only because God has given us the “initial” grace to desire more grace…In the Roman Catholic view, justification is a process by which we participate with God in achieving our salvation. The Biblical view is that justification is God’s declaration of our complete righteousness and total forgiveness, apart from any works. This gift is received by faith alone–apart from works (Rom. 3:28; Eph. 2:8-9).

 

[MariaG]

It is hard to know how to respond. When a Lutheran says God saves us by grace alone, we mean it. God simply saves us. By grace. End of story.

It is apparent to us that a Roman Catholic is expected to bring something else to the table.

I don’t know what else to say.

No, it is not apparent.

And when we say that God saves by grace alone we mean it also. End of Story.

The only difference is we see it as a process not a done deal. A person can have saving grace, but still be far away from holiness. It would be similar to the men with the coins. The master did not give all the men the same amount of coins, but different amounts according to what their talents were. And those that increased the coins, He gave more to. The one who buried it and didn’t use it, the master took it away and gave to the others.

That parable perfectly explains the Catholic teaching of the Grace that God gives us. It all comes from God, it all goes back to God, but we ARE responsible for what we do with the grace He gives us. If we fail to do anything with the saving Grace given to us, that saving grace will be taken away from us.

 

[kaycee]

No, it is not apparent.

And when we say that God saves by grace alone we mean it also. End of Story.

The only difference is we see it as a process not a done deal. A person can have saving grace, but still be far away from holiness. It would be similar to the men with the coins. The master did not give all the men the same amount of coins, but different amounts according to what their talents were. And those that increased the coins, He gave more to. The one who buried it and didn’t use it, the master took it away and gave to the others.

That parable perfectly explains the Catholic teaching of the Grace that God gives us. It all comes from God, it all goes back to God, but we ARE responsible for what we do with the grace He gives us. If we fail to do anything with the saving Grace given to us, that saving grace will be taken away from us.

RC Grace is merited by cooperation. Saving Grace is unmerited favor. RC’s must remain in a state of grace and must cooperate within the sacramental system to maintain a level of grace in order to be accepted by God. The RC soul does indeed merit heaven by cooporation with grace. There are foundational differences in the understanding of what is meant by Grace.

Justification and Sanctification are one in the same to the RC. RC grace is infused to the soul, transforming it to a degree based on the level of cooporation of the RC. The goal is to cooporate enough to where the soul does indeed merit heaven.

True Justification is imputed to the believer thru Faith by the sole work of Jesus death and resurrection. Sanctification is a life long process of growing in the Lord and becoming more and more like Him.

 

[Angainor]

No, it is not apparent.

And when we say that God saves by grace alone we mean it also. End of Story.

The only difference is we see it as a process not a done deal.

End of Story. Not a done deal.

As a Lutheran, I don’t even know how to handle that concept. To me End of Story ≡ Done Deal.

A person can have saving grace, but still be far away from holiness.

Quite right. But it is important not to mix justification with sanctification.
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Galatians 3:11

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:22-23
Justification sets us free from sin. The fruit of which leads to sanctification, what you call holiness.

 

[MariaG]

RC Grace is merited by cooperation. Saving Grace is unmerited favor. RC’s must remain in a state of grace and must cooperate within the sacramental system to maintain a level of grace in order to be accepted by God. The RC soul does indeed merit heaven by cooporation with grace. There are foundational differences in the understanding of what is meant by Grace.

Justification and Sanctification are one in the same to the RC. RC grace is infused to the soul, transforming it to a degree based on the level of cooporation of the RC. The goal is to cooporate enough to where the soul does indeed merit heaven.

No, you do not understand the Catholic position. Again, you have Catholics trying to earn their way to heaven.

Catholics use the WORDS of sanctification and justification interchangeably, but we clearly have a very definite diliniation between the initial justification and then the further process of justification, which you would call sanctification.

Justification is the transformation of the soul which is steeped in original sin to a child of God through the grace and divine sonship through Jesus Christ. There is then a further process of justification, separate from the initial justification, which again, you would call sanctification.

 

[Nicene]

End of Story. Not a done deal.

As a Lutheran, I don’t even know how to handle that concept. To me End of Story ≡ Done Deal.Quite right. But it is important not to mix justification with sanctification.
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Galatians 3:11

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:22-23
Justification sets us free from sin. The fruit of which leads to sanctification, what you call holiness.

This is incorrect. We are sanctified at baptism, just as we are cleansed and justified:

1 Cor 6:11: And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

However sanctification is a process in which we are to grow:

1 Thess 4:3: For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity;

Shedding vices and growing in virtues:

Rom 6:19: I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.

So we may be sanctified wholly:

1 Thess 5:23: May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Because without sanctification we won’t see God.

Heb 12:14: Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

By saying we are not sanctified when we become part of Christs body in baptism, 1 Cor 6:11, (his body and bride in reality, not a metaphor), is to say Christ isn’t holy and God had not to power to bring us into his holiness as partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4).

Just for clarity, sanctification and holiness are the same thing biblically. The word is αγιασμοs, (hagiasmos) which you will find in all of the above. We use both terms, because both are true. It isn’t either or for us as with protestantism. (It is also the name of the Holy Spirit; Hagio pneumatos. ) Since we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit, are cleansed by Him, of course we are also sanctified by his very nature.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

No, you do not understand the Catholic position. Again, you have Catholics trying to earn their way to heaven.

sigh

This is the one thing I never could understand about most Protestants I have come across. They say “Catholicism teaches that you need to earn your way into heaven which is contrary to Christian teaching.” My response as a Catholic is that we do not believe we can earn our salvation, which is consistent with Christian teaching.

If I were Morman, the same Christian could ask “Mormanism teaches that you can become your own god.” The Morman would respond “Yes, Mormans believe one can become a god.”

I just don’t get it. It is inherrant in many Protestants not to trust what a Catholic has to say about their own religious beliefs.

 

[MariaG]

sigh

This is the one thing I never could understand about most Protestants I have come across. They say “Catholicism teaches that you need to earn your way into heaven which is contrary to Christian teaching.” My response as a Catholic is that we do not believe we can earn our salvation, which is consistent with Christian teaching.

If I were Morman, the same Christian could ask “Mormanism teaches that you can become your own god.” The Morman would respond “Yes, Mormans believe one can become a god.”

I just don’t get it. It is inherrant in many Protestants not to trust what a Catholic has to say about their own religious beliefs.

My favorite reason is they just don’t believe we are educated enough to understand what the Catholic Church really teaches

 

[Erich]

“…What you probably have not heard is that the JDDJ very carefully avoid precise definitions of the words grace, faith, sin, etc. That is no accident. Careful definition of those terms would have shown how far apart our two churches actually are on the doctrine of justification…”

Precise definitions from the glossary of the CCC:

**FAITH: **Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God (26, 142, 150, 1814, 2087).

**GRACE: **The free and undeserved gift that God gives us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children. As sanctifying grace, God shares his divine life and friendship with us in a habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that enables the soul to live with God, to act by his love. As actual grace, God gives us the help to conform our lives to his will. Sacramental grace and special graces (charisms, the grace of one’s state of life) are gifts of the Holy Spirit to help us live out our Christian vocation (1996, 2000; cf. 654).

**SIN: **An offense against God as well as a fault against reason, truth, and right conscience. Sin is a deliberate thought, word, deed, or omission contrary to the eternal law of God. In judging the gravity of sin, it is customary to distinguish between mortal and venial sins (1849, 1853, 1854).

And, for good measure:

**JUSTIFICATION: **The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” (Rom 3:22). Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man (1987-1989).

**SALVATION: **The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone (169).

**SANCTIFYING GRACE: **The grace which heals our human nature wounded by sin by giving us a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us–of making us “perfect,” holy, and Christlike (1999).

 

[Angainor]

JUSTIFICATION: The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” (Rom 3:22). Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man (1987-1989).

This sounds awesome! :extrahappy:

However,
If, in fact, Rome does teach justification as the Bible teaches it, then there should be an immediate change in its view of indulgences, prayer to the saints and the myriad of other extra-biblical traditions that it has embraced. For if justification is the heart and center of the Bible, then these other things are incompatible with it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It is hard to know how to respond. When a Lutheran says God saves us by grace alone, we mean it. God simply saves us. By grace. End of story.

It is apparent to us that a Roman Catholic is expected to bring something else to the table.

I don’t know what else to say.

By Christ Alone, By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone.

Provided you define Faith correctly, of course.

See my thread on “Bridging the “Faith Alone” Divide”.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

This sounds awesome! :extrahappy:

However, If, in fact, Rome does teach justification as the Bible teaches it, then there should be an immediate change in its view of indulgences, prayer to the saints and the myriad of other extra-biblical traditions that it has embraced. For if justification is the heart and center of the Bible, then these other things are incompatible with it.

Since you were unaware of the Church’s teaching on justification, I’m wondering if your call for “immediate change” can be attributed to similar ignorance on these other doctrines.

Worth a look.

 

[Angainor]

Since you were unaware of the Church’s teaching on justification, I’m wondering if your call for “immediate change” can be attributed to similar ignorance on these other doctrines.

I am not ignorant of Roman justification. The glossary [post=2093271]definition[/post], if taken by itself, seems too good to be true.

However, if paired with the glossary definition of “faith” it falls apart. The glossary definition of “faith” makes faith both a virtue given by grace :yup: and an obligation :nope:.

Everything seems so slippery. If the glossary definition of “justification” is paired with [post=2085590]James Akin’s[/post] description of faith, everything seems just fine. But the “obligation” aspect of faith is either absent or very carefully obfuscated (the word “obligation” certainly is not there) from Akin’s description and he is not working with any particular definition of “justification” (“Without going into the subject of what kind of justification is being discussed here…”).

[post=2085669]I boiled[/post] Akin’s definition of faith down to “we are justified by the Faith, Hope, and Charity (Belief, trust, and Love for God) that is infused into the human intellect by grace.”

If that were paired with the glossary definition of Justification, I’d be happy. :dancing: Its not. Its not paired with any “kind” of justification, and I don’t see any kind of “obligation” in it.

In any case, if a biblical combination of faith and justification were paired up, purgatory, the treasury of merit, and other oddities would evaporate.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am not ignorant of Roman justification. The glossary [post=2093271]definition[/post], if taken by itself, seems too good to be true.

However, if paired with the glossary definition of “faith” it falls apart. The glossary definition of “faith” makes faith both a virtue given by grace :yup: and an obligation :nope:.

Everything seems so slippery. If the glossary definition of “justification” is paired with [post=2085590]James Akin’s[/post] description of faith, everything seems just fine. But the “obligation” aspect of faith is either absent or very carefully obfuscated (the word “obligation” certainly is not there) from Akin’s description and he is not working with any particular definition of “justification” (“Without going into the subject of what kind of justification is being discussed here…”).

[post=2085669]I boiled[/post] Akin’s definition of faith down to “we are justified by the Faith, Hope, and Charity (Belief, trust, and Love for God) that is infused into the human intellect by grace.”

If that were paired with the glossary definition of Justification, I’d be happy. :dancing: Its not. Its not paired with any “kind” of justification, and I don’t see any kind of “obligation” in it.

In any case, if a biblical combination of faith and justification were paired up, purgatory, the treasury of merit, and other oddities would evaporate.

Read the definition carefully…the obligation is ours not God’s.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am not ignorant of Roman justification. The glossary [post=2093271]definition[/post], if taken by itself, seems too good to be true.

However, if paired with the glossary definition of “faith” it falls apart. The glossary definition of “faith” makes faith both a virtue given by grace :yup: and an obligation :nope:.

Everything seems so slippery. If the glossary definition of “justification” is paired with [post=2085590]James Akin’s[/post] description of faith, everything seems just fine. But the “obligation” aspect of faith is either absent or very carefully obfuscated (the word “obligation” certainly is not there) from Akin’s description and he is not working with any particular definition of “justification” (“Without going into the subject of what kind of justification is being discussed here…”).

[post=2085669]I boiled[/post] Akin’s definition of faith down to “we are justified by the Faith, Hope, and Charity (Belief, trust, and Love for God) that is infused into the human intellect by grace.”

If that were paired with the glossary definition of Justification, I’d be happy. :dancing: Its not. Its not paired with any “kind” of justification, and I don’t see any kind of “obligation” in it.

In any case, if a biblical combination of faith and justification were paired up, purgatory, the treasury of merit, and other oddities would evaporate.

BTW-

It sounds like you are very close to being one happy camper…I have another Akin article for you on Righteousness and Merit.

Enjoy!

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/RIGHTEOU.htm

 

[Angainor]

BTW-

It sounds like you are very close to being one happy camper…I have another Akin article for you on Righteousness and Merit.

Enjoy!

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/RIGHTEOU.htm

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

No, Mr. Akin, I do not believe in two types of righteousness.

Forrest Gump’s mamma was wrong when she told him “Stupid is as stupid does.”

Forrest is stupid.

 

[Erich]

If that were paired with the glossary definition of Justification, I’d be happy. :dancing: Its not. Its not paired with any “kind” of justification, and I don’t see any kind of “obligation” in it.

In any case, if a biblical combination of faith and justification were paired up, purgatory, the treasury of merit, and other oddities would evaporate.

No obligation? What about Matthew 7:20-21

20 So by their fruits you will know them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Or Matthew 25:44-45

44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

Or James 2:26

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

No purgatory? How do you get from “all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God” to “nothing unclean will enter Heaven,” except via the purifying coal of the seraphim? As seen in cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=86

In the dominant Protestant view, “justification” is like a court procedure. A guilty man stands before a judge who decides to decree him “innocent” on the basis of another man’s innocence. That is, we as sinners stand before God the Father who declares us innocent because of Jesus’ sinlessness and His saving actions. So Protestant justification is like covering a dirty man with a clean robe, declaring him to be clean when he is really not. Martin Luther frankly acknowledged this position, describing a justified man as a snow-covered pile of dung, clean on the outside but not on the inside. The robe is not a part of the dirty man, nor is the snow part of the dunghill; they only hide the filth while remaining exterior and separate. The sinner himself isn’t clean or just, but he appears (or is called) clean and just.

The Catholic view of initial justification is more like bathing or healing, such as a hospitable man washing a dirty man or a physician medicating a sick man to make him healthy. In other words, God doesn’t simply call a man clean and justified or make him look clean and just, He actually makes him clean with no dirt or sickness remaining. The Protestant claim is that God makes us appear just with no interior transformation, but the Catholic teaching is that God actually transforms us into just people.

And, as Matthew 12:32 reminds us,

32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Clearly, one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins!

Finally, from catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.