Joint Orthodox-Lutheran commemoration of Reformation announced [CC]

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Cavaradossi said:
Celebrate this and that with the Pope one month, celebrate another thing with the Lutherans next month, and then celebrate something else next month with the Jews.
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Raymond Arroyo had a comment at the end of his coverage of one of Pope John Paul II’s last big trips … I can’t find it online, but let me paraphrase: “These x number of days have been awe-inspiring but also the most exhausting of my life. I guess I should know better than to try to keep up with an 80-some year old pontiff.”

I guess we Catholics are just naturally heartier than you guys. 🙂
 
benjohnson said:
The LWF would have ecumenical relations with a sack of potatoes just as long as it got to monologue about “social-justice” issues.
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I would like to retract this statement - it was unfair to the sack of potatoes.
 
KjetilK said:
Where does it say that they are to celebrate?
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I’m sure that there will be a celebratory aspect to this kind of thing. As noted by an ELCA announcement about their plans for the 500th anniversary of the Lutheran Reformation in October 2017:
[Rev. Marcus Kunz, assistant to the ELCA presiding bishop] said the 500th anniversary observance is an opportunity for the ELCA “to give fresh expression of the liberating and renewing hope in Christ that Martin Luther described.”
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 Under the theme, “**Freed** and Renewed in Christ: 500 Years of God’s Grace in Action,” the ELCA’s 500th anniversary observance will include featured events for ELCA members to participate in the 500th anniversary through worship, learning and service.
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The events include the 2015 Worship Jubilee in Atlanta in July, which is being planned in collaboration with the Association of Lutheran Church Musicians. In 2016, the Grace Gathering will be held in the summer along with the 2016 ELCA Churchwide Assembly in New Orleans.
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 “Grace Gathering events will provide an opportunity for ELCA members to join (the (Churchwide Assembly’s) voting members and others in **celebrating the Reformation**, planning and preparing for local and regional activities related to the Reformation anniversary and most importantly being renewed in that ‘living, daring confidence in God’s grace’ Luther described,” said Kunz.
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elca.org/News-and-Events/7727

This talk of being “freed” and of “liberation” is all about being freed and liberated from the Roman Catholic Church and this announcement talks about “celebrating the Reformation” not mourning it.
 
I’m not sure why people who are not Catholic are upset. Sure, the Reformation doesn’t match up entirely with Orthodox dogma. But let’s keep in mind that what the Reformation did accomplish was a successful critique of papal authority and of an overly bloated hierarchy that failed to respond to many people’s spiritual needs. I think that is something worth celebrating. A Catholic might be more focused upon the errors of it and later developments, but that is besides the point of the celebration. And besides, Orthodox-Protestant dialogue reaches back to the very beginnings of Protestantism. We never entirely agreed on everything, and probably never will. But we should celebrate the relationship, nonetheless.
 
Maybe closer than they think. When I went to high school almost every single Romanian student went to the same pentecostal church. I learned that they all joined the church when they came to America, none of the ones I encountered went to an orthodox church. The orthodox like protestants in catholic countries or joining up with them like ROC and the old school “we can’t agree on anything except disliking Catholics” anglicans.

Protestantism is growing though in former orthodox strongholds and we are already seeing some “unfriendly” behavior when the tables are reversed and the orthodox are loosing members, they don’t have smug commemoration friendships then? While European catholics are at least" battle tested" are the orthodox any better prepared? They are a slow moving insular church that is heavily tied to the home country, travels badly, and presides over very nominal populations in some parts. If anything they seem terribly equipped to handle evangelizing protestantism if missionaries ever concentrate on them.
 
KjetilK said:
Again, who is calling this a ‘celebration’?
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The word certainty implies something positive and I doubt the Lutherans would agree to commemorate the reformation with the Orthodox in 2017 if the Orthodox were going to just flat out deny what Lutherans believe the reformation accomplished, i.e. a return to Christianity.

But perhaps the Orthodox will point out where the reformation failed, though I doubt it.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The word certainty implies something positive and I doubt the Lutherans would agree to commemorate the reformation with the Orthodox in 2017 **if the Orthodox were going to just flat out deny what Lutherans believe the reformation accomplished, i.e. a return to Christianity. **
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I just can’t seem to make any sense of this statement. The Orthodox do deny that, unless I’m very much misinformed. Why would that stop the Lutherans from agreeing to commemorate the reformation with them?
 
Peter_J said:
I just can’t seem to make any sense of this statement. The Orthodox do deny that, unless I’m very much misinformed.
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I believe Orthodoxy does deny the reformation its validity. I can’t deny positive elements to it on the whole however, ie challenging the authority of the Pope and challenging the corruption of the church of the time but that doesn’t justify that enterprise.

The Lutheran and Orthodox dialogue in the 16th century is probably what best reflects the Orthodox understanding of the reformation, specifically the Lutheran reformation.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
I believe Orthodoxy does deny the reformation its validity. I can’t deny positive elements to it on the whole however, ie challenging the authority of the Pope and challenging the corruption of the church of the time but that doesn’t justify that enterprise.

The Lutheran and Orthodox dialogue in the 16th century is probably what best reflects the Orthodox understanding of the reformation, specifically the Lutheran reformation.
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IIRC, those original dialogues consisted of several misunderstandings and mistranslations between Greek, German, and Latin. But they did end cordially, with Jeremias II referring to future communications as “from a friend,” even if he did not consider the Lutherans to be Orthodox. Why wouldn’t one remember and mark the shared history of a friend?

Separately, how the ELCA and the largely-unorthodox LWF choose to commemorate (whether through festive celebration or solemn remembrance) has no bearing on how much the Orthodox can participate or in what spirit.

The rest of us more “Lutheran” Lutherans will commemorate the reformation as the solemn necessity we believe it to have been. This is not dissimilar to how one might commemorate WWII, its tremendous loss of life, yet incredible victory of freedom. It might’ve been Krauth or Sasse who said something to the effect of, “The good Lutheran must rise each morning and justify his division from Rome.” This, as our confessions state, is a grave matter. Lutherans, at least the sort that value their Confessions, will treat it as such.

O come desire of nations bind,
And join in one the hearts of all mankind.
Bid us our sad divisions cease.
And be Thyself out Prince of Peace.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The word certainty implies something positive and I doubt the Lutherans would agree to commemorate the reformation with the Orthodox in 2017 if the Orthodox were going to just flat out deny what Lutherans believe the reformation accomplished, i.e. a return to Christianity.

But perhaps the Orthodox will point out where the reformation failed, though I doubt it.
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On April 9, we commemorated the start of the second world war in Norway. (That is, when Germany invaded Norway.) Do you think we ran out in the streets celebrating the fact that we were invaded?

And since you insist that this is a celebration, what about the 2017 Lutheran-Roman Catholic commemoration?
 
Rohzek;12991462[COLOR=“DarkRed” said:
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I’m not sure why people who are not Catholic are upset. Sure, the Reformation doesn’t match up entirely with Orthodox dogma. But let’s keep in mind that what the Reformation did accomplish was a successful critique of papal authority and of an overly bloated hierarchy that failed to respond to many people’s spiritual needs. I think that is something worth celebrating. A Catholic might be more focused upon the errors of it and later developments, but that is besides the point of the celebration. And besides, Orthodox-Protestant dialogue reaches back to the very beginnings of Protestantism. We never entirely agreed on everything, and probably never will. But we should celebrate the relationship, nonetheless.
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It’s like divorced couples commemorating their former anniversary. We’re just real good friends now, Lots to celebrate 😃
 
paulrxp said:
It’s like divorced couples commemorating their former anniversary. We’re just real good friends now, Lots to celebrate 😃
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If we’re to use this analogy, we should also bear in mind that one spouse was abusive toward the other and the children (burning them at the stake, taking advantage of the finances to fund their own pleasures, etc.). When the other spouse read from a recently-widely-published book how a marriage ought to function, they naturally demanded a loving and liberated existence. Things got messy, and mean-spirited things were said and done by both spouses. The more established spouse hired the better lawyers (the rich old Italians and Spaniards could pay the better armies) and kept the house (and most of the cathedrals and bishops). The poorer spouse couldn’t seem to stay on their feet, and moved from place to place. But there is hope. Neither spouse has taken another, and the divorce has never been finalized. The richer spouse has largely admitted its part in the seperation, and identified how it ought to have treated its children. In fact, the couple has recently engaged in cordial dialogue, and the relationship is on the mend. They haven’t entirely moved back in together, but the poor spouse does keep a toothbrush in the rich spouse’s guest bedroom. God willing, the two may someday visibly show their oneness. 🙂
 
I think your divorce analogy, steido, applies both ways. Like the times when Rome felt a need to excommunicate reformers for improper actions or improper beliefs.
 
Peter_J said:
I think your divorce analogy, steido, applies both ways. Like the times when Rome felt a need to excommunicate reformers for improper actions or improper beliefs.
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Not my analogy. 😉 But I agree with you, Peter, and the CCC that “often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The fact that this is even admitted is evidence that the rift is healing, IMO.

I also think that’s reason to believe overtures like, say, joint commemorations of the Reformation are more than just hollow ecumenibabble.
 
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