Jonah and the Whale

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Thanks Oralabora. I think part of the problem here is that our grandson was told the story when he was preschool age. They are pretty literal at that age. I agree it looks to be allegorical.
I do this a lot - answer one of the early posts before reading the others. I do thank all of you for your comments. They have given me insight into this story. You are right, I will go back and read the bible on this, and also with my grandson, or have him read it to me.

I am comfortable with this being allegorical which in no way destroys the message contained in the story. Part of my problem of course, is the respect I have for the digestive ability of whales. They eat a lot of difficult to digest stuff. I shouldn’t think 1 man would prove to ve very difficult.

Seriously on this question, I do have difficulty with interpreting the Bible literally or as historical fact as presented. I do think that the contents are a reflection of what happened historically and the meaning it had to people then. I think the other support in the Church is the magisterium. If they indeed have not pronounced on this, then I think we are free, without falling into a modernist heresy, to respond to the meaning of the story if not believing it as actual historical fact.

I will probably be back with another comment after I read the tale - or is that tail!
 
Worse still, they invoke the church fathers and the Church teaching in order to justify their unbelief.
If we obey the Church and her ancient fathers, then how is it that we can be persistent in disbelief? The Church teaches Truth; to understand what the Church teaches is to understand the Truth.

To refer that the story of Jonah is allegorical is NOT mocking it. You need to realize that your perspective is not that of the Church and that those who do not agree with you are not disagreeing with the Church.
 
Regardless though of whether you belief that Jonah was swallowed by a real whale, or a figurative one, the story itself is true, and true prophecy.
I agree that it is true as a way of teaching truth, but I don’t take it literally. I wonder if those people in ancient days regarded this is a true story or , just like in the parables of Jesus, if they understood it as teaching something of a deeper meaning?
 
I agree that it is true as a way of teaching truth, but I don’t take it literally. I wonder if those people in ancient days regarded this is a true story or , just like in the parables of Jesus, if they understood it as teaching something of a deeper meaning?
Just like today some did and some didn’t. People haven’t changed all that much.
 
I teach our faith to small children and teens. Sometimes the best answer is "Anything is possible with God."
 
It is not your job to decide anything at all.
Read carefully. I never asked whose job it was, or claimed it’s my “job.” The question was “how” the decision is made.

Your answer “the Church” smacks of superstition.

But assuming that someone in “the Church” makes the decision, and it is not simply some sort of magical process, your answer fails to shed any light on it comes about.
 
Although I am inclined to believe the story is not materially accurate,
Why?

Is it simply because the occurence is rare?

If it comes to that, lots of things in the Bible are rare or hard to believe, judged from every day experiences.

My question, which everyone seems to want to avoid answering, is what is your criterion for deciding whether something is “allegorical,” which means that you don’t believe it really happened?
 
You need to realize that your perspective is not that of the Church and that those who do not agree with you are not disagreeing with the Church.
I have not claimed that people who do not believe the story happened are disagreeing with the Church.

I have claim that the method by which they decide what to believe or not believe makes no sense.
 
Just like today some did and some didn’t. People haven’t changed all that much.
Would you say that Saint Augustine, Doctor of the Church got it?
Notice that word Saint in front of his name?
Did you read the link I provided which showed that he absolutely defended the literal interpretation of Jonah and the Whale as a real historical event.

newadvent.org/fathers/1102102.htm See Question 6

The scripture is not there for our own personal interpretation. Augustine represented the Church fathers as taking a literal interpretation of this scripture. It is therefore incorrect for us to take a different interpretation of the story. The Council of Trent taught us this, that the Sacred Tradition guides us in correctly interpreting scripture.
 
My question, which everyone seems to want to avoid answering, is what is your criterion for deciding whether something is “allegorical,” which means that you don’t believe it really happened?
It’s simple really.

I was trained as a scientist and have a degree in Chemistry.

When I was compelled to return to Christianity, I returned to the Catholic Church precisely because she did not require a literalist interpretation of all that is in the Bible to be Catholic; no other religion reconciles science and faith better than Catholicism, a faith that found, within her professed religious, many eminent scientists.

What difference does it really make to our faith if we believe the story is figuratively true, or literally true? It is still true one way or the other. To argue over this is to ask how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The Bible is literature that reveals truth, not an accurate history book. It is quite plausible to consider this story as allegory, or a depiction of a truth in a story.

Look at any beautiful Church with stained glass windows relating Gospel stories, and how Jesus is depicted. Can we say with certainty that the depiction is exactly how Jesus looked? Of course not. Does it matter? No. We see a depiction of a male figure in the depiction of a story and it’s plausible to say that it is Jesus. Similarly a story can be used to illustrate a truth. That truth makes the story true even though the illustrative method is not historical fact.

Therefore those who believe that the story is literally true, are right. And those who believe it is allegory are right, because both believe that the story is about truth, and there’s no argument over that truth.

But one side trying to convert the other… strikes me as a divisive and unneeded debate.
Would you say that Saint Augustine, Doctor of the Church got it?
Notice that word Saint in front of his name?
Did you read the link I provided which showed that he absolutely defended the literal interpretation of Jonah and the Whale as a real historical event.

newadvent.org/fathers/1102102.htm See Question 6

The scripture is not there for our own personal interpretation. Augustine represented the Church fathers as taking a literal interpretation of this scripture. It is therefore incorrect for us to take a different interpretation of the story. The Council of Trent taught us this, that the Sacred Tradition guides us in correctly interpreting scripture.
A “literal” interpretation is not the same thing as a “literalist” interpretation.
 
It’s simple really.
A “literal” interpretation is not the same thing as a “literalist” interpretation.
I believe you are mincing words. Did Augustine, or did he not, teach that the story of Jonah and Whale was a true story to be believed as a real historical event.

Excuse me, that is Saint Augustine by the way.

Here is the link again if you would like to review before giving your answer.
newadvent.org/fathers/1102102.htm See Question 6
 
I believe you are mincing words. Did Augustine, or did he not, teach that the story of Jonah and Whale was a true story to be believed as a real historical event.

Excuse me, that is Saint Augustine by the way.

Here is the link again if you would like to review before giving your answer.
newadvent.org/fathers/1102102.htm See Question 6
This is a specious argument. The Church does not require a belief in a literal historical interpretation of the Book of Jonah, regardless of the opinion of the great Augustine. St. Thomas Aquinas is called the angelic doctor, yet the Church uses very little of his work as her official teaching. If I recall correctly, Aquinas did not support a belief in the immaculate conception as proclaimed as a dogma in the 1850s. Does that impact what we believe today?

Great as he was, St. Augustine is not the last authority on scriptural interpretation.
 
What the hell? It’s not an allegory!!!

Look if the creator of the universe can make something out of nothing like all of us, why is it so hard to believe that Jonah can get swallowed by a fish and survive? A second theory is that he did die,but was resurrected. If that is true, he would be a type of Christ where like Jesus, it was for three days and three nights. There should be no problem with accepting the supernatural.
At the risk of upsetting many here, I think the story is allegory. Remember that interpreting a Bible passage literally is not the same thing as taking a literalist interpretation of the Bible. The former means interpreting the story at face value (disobey God and you will be punished), the second means you think it is a historical fact as well.

Believing the story to be literal, historical fact, is not de fide. The Church doesn’t require you to believe it to be a historical fact.
 
This is a specious argument. The Church does not require a belief in a literal historical interpretation of the Book of Jonah, regardless of the opinion of the great Augustine. St. Thomas Aquinas is called the angelic doctor, yet the Church uses very little of his work as her official teaching. If I recall correctly, Aquinas did not support a belief in the immaculate conception as proclaimed as a dogma in the 1850s. Does that impact what we believe today?

Great as he was, St. Augustine is not the last authority on scriptural interpretation.
So are you suggesting that every dogma of the church that Aquinas does not confirm can be called into question. Why do you make Aquinas your final authority on dogma?

St. Augustine is one of the strongest authorities on the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Why do you accept his teachings on the Immaculate Conception of Mary and yet reject his teachings on Jonah and the Whale.
 
This is a specious argument. The Church does not require a belief in a literal historical interpretation of the Book of Jonah, regardless of the opinion of the great Augustine. St. Thomas Aquinas is called the angelic doctor, yet the Church uses very little of his work as her official teaching. If I recall correctly, Aquinas did not support a belief in the immaculate conception as proclaimed as a dogma in the 1850s. Does that impact what we believe today?

Great as he was, St. Augustine is not the last authority on scriptural interpretation.
“Great as he was”. And yet you do not regard him as great in his interpretation of Jonah and the Whale. Who is greater than St. (Notice the word Saint) Augustine who teaches that Jonah and the Whale is an allegory.

Please produce one Catholic theologian of any note who believes it was not an historical fact.
Maybe you regard the Catholic Encyclopedia to be a greater authority than St. Augustine.
If so, then you will be disappointed to learn that the Catholic Encyclopedia absolutely affirms the historicity of the story. In fact the Catholic Encyclopedia uses the opportunity to have a solid jab at the Rationalists.
newadvent.org/cathen/08497b.htm

Mind you, that was in 1910 and we have to admit that the church has changed somewhat since then. So what shall we follow? The teachings of St. Augustine and the church for 1900 years, or the teachings which some people believe that the church allows in the last 50 years.
The church allows a great many things in these last perilous days. As did Moses who allowed divorce because of the hardness of the peoples hearts. Matt 19:7-10

I have produced my authorities including a Saint and Doctor of the Church. Please produce your authority which teaches that it is an allegorical tale.
 
What the hell? It’s not an allegory!!!
You are correct - the story of Jonah is actually a work of didactic fiction - a story which attempts to teach something using a fictional story from the author’s imagination. The author of Jonah wants to teach his audience exactly the same thing that Jesus taught his followers: “Love your enemies”. This is a teaching which, at the time this book was written, was bound to meet with intense opposition. Instead of using a fictional debate to teach (as the author of Job did), the author of Jonah chose didactic fiction. In this genre he could use humor, parody, and irony to teach his audience a lesson that was very difficult for them to accept: God loves other nations too, and so must we.

Arguing over whether this event was a believeable miracle or not ignores church’s instructions of analyzing such stories for clues as to what literary form the author was using and what message is being conveyed. The logic that “God can do anything and miracles should never be ruled out” may be true BUT it is way too restrictive in allowing one to analyze and find the author’s meaning in a story. It effectively destroys the author’s ability and right to craft a fictional account as a vehicle of revelation. Most stories contain literary clues as to the type of writing and this story is one of the prime examples of fictional revelation. Whether the miracle could have occurred or not is not at all germaine to the meaning of the story.

The answer as to the genre of this story is clearly indicated to the reader by way of the setting, the plot, and the tone. The setting of the book is not realistic - a prophet from Israel preaching in Nineveh before the fall of the northern kingdom. The plot of the book is obviously unrealistic. The episode with the fish, the psalm from the belly of the fish, the immediate repentance of the Ninevites, and the whole episode with the castor-oil plant are perfect for a humorous fictional narrative and ludicrous for a historical narrative. And finally, the humorous tone clues us in to the fact that we are reading fiction: Jonah is not anything like the historical Jewish prophets but a parody of a historical prophet. His total lack of concern for the Ninevites, even after receiving his call, his angry and accusatory tone toward God, and his constant pettiness all make him a delightful fictional creation rather than a serious historical prophet who could only be regarded with contempt.

There is an extensive discussion of Jonah in this thread (from which most of the above is taken)
 
Why is that unrealistic? it’s one of the most realistic situations we can encounter and in many ways, I completely relate to Jonah. Assyria was evil empire of the day and extremely cruel to the nations they would conquer. Knowing that any of us would not want to preach the gospel. If Iran was conquering Europe and murdering Catholics throughout the continent are you to say that if you were the prophet that would have to go into Iran that you would be happy to do so? Of course not, you would want God to wipe them out.
You are correct - the story of Jonah is actually a work of didactic fiction - a story which attempts to teach something using a fictional story from the author’s imagination. The author of Jonah wants to teach his audience exactly the same thing that Jesus taught his followers: “Love your enemies”. This is a teaching which, at the time this book was written, was bound to meet with intense opposition. Instead of using a fictional debate to teach (as the author of Job did), the author of Jonah chose didactic fiction. In this genre he could use humor, parody, and irony to teach his audience a lesson that was very difficult for them to accept: God loves other nations too, and so must we.

Arguing over whether this event was a believeable miracle or not ignores church’s instructions of analyzing such stories for clues as to what literary form the author was using and what message is being conveyed. The logic that “God can do anything and miracles should never be ruled out” may be true BUT it is way too restrictive in allowing one to analyze and find the author’s meaning in a story. It effectively destroys the author’s ability and right to craft a fictional account as a vehicle of revelation. Most stories contain literary clues as to the type of writing and this story is one of the prime examples of fictional revelation. Whether the miracle could have occurred or not is not at all germaine to the meaning of the story.

The answer as to the genre of this story is clearly indicated to the reader by way of the setting, the plot, and the tone. The setting of the book is not realistic - a prophet from Israel preaching in Nineveh before the fall of the northern kingdom. The plot of the book is obviously unrealistic. The episode with the fish, the psalm from the belly of the fish, the immediate repentance of the Ninevites, and the whole episode with the castor-oil plant are perfect for a humorous fictional narrative and ludicrous for a historical narrative. And finally, the humorous tone clues us in to the fact that we are reading fiction: Jonah is not anything like the historical Jewish prophets but a parody of a historical prophet. His total lack of concern for the Ninevites, even after receiving his call, his angry and accusatory tone toward God, and his constant pettiness all make him a delightful fictional creation rather than a serious historical prophet who could only be regarded with contempt.

There is an extensive discussion of Jonah in this thread (from which most of the above is taken)
 
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