Joseph had other children?

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I don’t think it IS the fault of EO tradition; I don’t think you have EO tradition exactly right.
Well they don’t exactly have a catechism for you and I to check, but do you really think you’ve got it right and an actual EO person (not to mention the guy married to an EO wife) have the EO tradition wrong?

For us catholics, it IS hard to know what genuine EO tradition is and isn’t when there seems to be conflicts between some EO posters here, but shouldn’t we take them at their word on their own tradition unless we have one of their authoritative sources that says otherwise?

If they say they don’t believe Mary and Joseph ever were married than that’s what they believe. It just sounds so… out there to our ears!
 
Well they don’t exactly have a catechism for you and I to check, but do you really think you’ve got it right and an actual EO person (not to mention the guy married to an EO wife) have the EO tradition wrong?
Lol. You’ve never heard inaccurate representations of Catholicism by actual, or especially ex-, Catholics?

I don’t think EO is any different in that aspect.
 
I don’t think it IS the fault of EO tradition; I don’t think you have EO tradition exactly right.
You are free to believe that, but I repeat that Joseph’s title in the hymns used in the liturgy is Joseph the Betrothed. If yoh look up the Akathist Hymn for Panagia (Mary) you will see repeated many times the salutation “Hail bride unwedded”. This particular hymn is used frequently in our divine services.
Believe me, if it is commonly used in the liturgy, it is pretty much the same as dogma.
 
I don’t think Mary and Joseph lived together like husband and wife while they were betrothed. Mary told the angel she was a virgin, remember? “How can that be when I never knew a man” what do you think she was talking about? Plus, if that were true than Jesus as God"s son would be really questioned by everyone.
 
Not my intent to stir up a hornet’s nest, but with regards to Joseph, I have never believed he was an “older guardian”, simply betrothed to Mary, to marry her for the sole purpose of watching over her as her protector. Joseph’s depiction in most religious art is not overly flattering – an old man who looks more like he could be Mary’s great-grandfather, frequently depicted as looking barely awake half the time and nodding off while supported by his staff (lest he topple over), or being shown seemingly just starring off into space; hardly calls to mind the image of “guardian/protector” in even the broadest sense of the word.

Frankly, if it was the intent of Mary’s parents to more or less provide a guardian, that guardianship could have been accomplished much more easily by simply placing her in a household with an older adult than going through the bother of a marriage. It also begs the question of why wouldn’t they have just kept her at home and acted as her guardians themselves. The whole “guardianship thing” just doesn’t stand to reason for me. One could argue that Mary’s parents were old, but I mean, let’s look at that – Mary was probably around 15 when she married Joseph. Assuming she had, let’s say for the sake of argument, four or five older siblings, that would make her parents somewhere in their late thirties when Mary was married. Hardly old even by ancient standards. Another convenience is having her parents as being “older” when they had Mary. I don’t know that it can be said for certain when Mary’s parents deceased; history does not even record their names let alone when they died; “Anna” and “Joachim” are simply later conventions (similar to the “names” of the three Magi) based on the infancy gospel which is more a work of (pious) fiction than anything. Over time the names have become accepted as fact and are now part of the tradition.

To me the guardianship theory is nothing more than a later device used to back up or bolster the idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity. No offence intended, but I’m of the opinion she had children with Joseph after Jesus; those children being the named siblings of Jesus in various places in the canonical gospels. So, yes, I believe Joseph (as well as Mary) did indeed have other children.

To be an only child in a Jewish community in the first century AD would have been something extremely unique and worthy of writing about, yet the gospels only speak to the siblings of Jesus, not to the fact he was a supposed only child (Jews were very aware of the first commandment given mankind by God; be fruitful and multiply – to purposely only have one child would, I think, have been almost unthinkable to Jews in those times.

Marriages, up until fairly recently in history, were virtually almost always exclusively arranged by the parents. Said parents usually knew each other for some time whether through business, being neighbors, friendship, etc. As such, the two sets of parents typically both lived in the same town. Joseph’s parents would have most likely have known Mary’s (and as such, I don’t think Joseph was ever born in or came from Bethlehem, but that’s another topic altogether). Joseph, in all likelihood, would have only been a few years older than Mary at best so, somewhere between 17 and 19 when they married. It’s quite possible they may have even known each other growing up.

This age of between 17-19 more or less negates the possibility of Joseph having been previously married and having several children. Even if that were the case, let’s face it, an older widower with several children in tow (some of them possibly almost as old as, indeed if not even older than, Mary herself) doesn’t exactly make a good prospective marriage match for your 14-15 year old daughter.

I don’t know if there is any truth to this, but I have heard/read that with typical Jewish marriages of the time, couples were betrothed for ‘x’ amount of time (a year maybe - ?). During that time, the couple were, I believe, permitted to live together and even have sexual relations. As I understand it, it was sort of a “trial marriage”. During this betrothal period and up until the couple were actually married, the woman was still legally considered a virgin even if said relations produced a child. This may account for Joseph to want to “put her away privately” even though they were not yet fully married; the betrothal was legally binding, just like the marriage, so either partner would have the option of ending the contract (essentially backing out of the marriage contract legally) if there were any issues.
Do you have any research findings to back up your beliefs? In my post #11, early christians wrote about these so-called brothers which I summarised in the post.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11598548&postcount=11

If your research is different from my findings, do please share and we can do the comparisons.
 
You are free to believe that, but I repeat that Joseph’s title in the hymns used in the liturgy is Joseph the Betrothed. If yoh look up the Akathist Hymn for Panagia (Mary) you will see repeated many times the salutation “Hail bride unwedded”. This particular hymn is used frequently in our divine services.
This is obviously a euphemism to avoid any profane wording.

Just as when St. Ephrem (4th century) says:
Some dare to claim that Mary became fully Joseph’s wife after the Savior’s birth.

“fully Joseph’s wife” is again a euphemism to avoid talking about sexual intercourse regarding the Holy Family.

He wasn’t contradicting St. Gabriel.
Believe me, if it is commonly used in the liturgy, it is pretty much the same as dogma.
Scripture says that the Blessed Virgin was the wife of Joseph.
Joseph contemplates divorcing her. You can’t divorce someone unless you’re first married.
The Angel calls Mary his wife.

You are projecting modern definitions on ancient Jewish culture.

Here’s an example from a Greek Orthodox website article The Ever-Virginity of the Mother of God:
The Orthodox have no difficulty, then, considering the ever-virginity of Mary a nonnegotiable fact and its alternative unthinkable. But why should this necessarily be so? Why insist on the idea that Mary (who was married, after all) did not go on to have a “normal” married life?
 
But you know what i have realized? If He had siblings or not doesn’t matter. Would Mary having sex with her husband lower her at all? Make her unworthy of carrying Jesus? Mean she wasn’t full of grace?
Actually, yes, it would have lowered her. I could go on, talking about OT typology and how it applies to Mary. But what matters here is Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. The best evidence here is the Visitation. It has a lot of parallels to Samuel and the Philistine captivity of the Ark. For instance, Elizabeth reacts similarly to seeing Mary as Samuel did to the Ark. Mary stays there for three months. And my favorite one, the verb used for Elizabeth’s reaction. The Greek verb is only used that one time in the entire NT, and only 5 times in the OT, all in reference to the Ark. The other parallel to point out is the spirit of God overshadowing her at the Miraculous Conception, just like it overshadowed the Ark.

So coming from a perspective of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant, her Perpetual Virginity makes more sense. Just as you wouldn’t defile the Ark of the (Old) Covenant that way, the Catholic Church teaches that Mary, in turn, remained a virgin for her entire life.
 
Actually, yes, it would have lowered her. I could go on, talking about OT typology and how it applies to Mary. But what matters here is Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. The best evidence here is the Visitation. It has a lot of parallels to Samuel and the Philistine captivity of the Ark. For instance, Elizabeth reacts similarly to seeing Mary as Samuel did to the Ark. Mary stays there for three months. And my favorite one, the verb used for Elizabeth’s reaction. The Greek verb is only used that one time in the entire NT, and only 5 times in the OT, all in reference to the Ark. The other parallel to point out is the spirit of God overshadowing her at the Miraculous Conception, just like it overshadowed the Ark.

So coming from a perspective of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant, her Perpetual Virginity makes more sense. Just as you wouldn’t defile the Ark of the (Old) Covenant that way, the Catholic Church teaches that Mary, in turn, remained a virgin for her entire life.
That’s an interpretation that relies heavily on a particular definition of the word “defile”, though, isn’t it? Is it orthodox to think sex within marriage is defiling?
 
This is obviously a euphemism to avoid any profane wording.

Just as when St. Ephrem (4th century) says:
Some dare to claim that Mary became fully Joseph’s wife after the Savior’s birth.

“fully Joseph’s wife” is again a euphemism to avoid talking about sexual intercourse regarding the Holy Family.

He wasn’t contradicting St. Gabriel.
Your opinion is respectfully noted.
Scripture says that the Blessed Virgin was the wife of Joseph.
Joseph contemplates divorcing her. You can’t divorce someone unless you’re first married.
The Angel calls Mary his wife.
You are projecting modern definitions on ancient Jewish culture.
Actually it is you who is doing the latter with your insistence that divorce can only pertain to those who are married. However, divorce is also the term used for ending a betrothal.
Here’s an example from a Greek Orthodox website article The Ever-Virginity of the Mother of God:
The quote from the article is positing how a Protestant would think. It isn’t stating that this is what the Orthodox Church teaches but answers a very common view of those from a non-Orthodox background.
 
That’s an interpretation that relies heavily on a particular definition of the word “defile”, though, isn’t it? Is it orthodox to think sex within marriage is defiling?
No, sex does not defile marriage, but it is a “common” act in marriage as it is a necessary part of producing children. However, anything or anyone used for holy purposes was “set apart” and no longer to be used for common purposes.
Does using a spoon to eat soup defile the spoon? Of course not, but heaven forbid you use a spoon consecrated for use in the Temple sacrifices to eat soup!
 
Prodromos,

Does EO tradition understand Joseph and Mary to not have raised Jesus together under one roof constituting a seemingly normal (if small) family or not? I’m sorry if my typing makes it sound snide, but I find bluntness makes for a certain clarity.

As I’m sure you know, marriage is rather more than sex. As a catholic, my imagination of the Holy Family life has otherwise been modeled on what I KNOW of family: sharing the wonder of children’s first steps, anxiety at their illness, stepping up housework when the other is sick or exhausted, supporting one another, making each other laugh, making each other feel loved… It’s unclear from what you’ve said so far whether the EO see Mary and Joseph as having had these common features of marriage or not. Perpetually betrothed sounds an awful lot like single mother and I’m having a hard time understanding how you guys really see things here.

The recent film “Mary of Nazareth” I thought did an excellent job of illustrating the catholic sense of what Mary and Joseph’s marriage would have been like. Can you give a sense of what the EO understanding of it was like?
 
No, sex does not defile marriage, but it is a “common” act in marriage as it is a necessary part of producing children. However, anything or anyone used for holy purposes was “set apart” and no longer to be used for common purposes.
Does using a spoon to eat soup defile the spoon? Of course not, but heaven forbid you use a spoon consecrated for use in the Temple sacrifices to eat soup!
Right, I follow your reasoning. So how much of “common” life was forbidden to Mary, do you think? This stuff manualman talks about, for instance. Would that have been OK?

As I’m sure you know, marriage is rather more than sex. As a catholic, my imagination of the Holy Family life has otherwise been modeled on what I KNOW of family: sharing the wonder of children’s first steps, anxiety at their illness, stepping up housework when the other is sick or exhausted, supporting one another, making each other laugh, making each other feel loved…
 
The word translated as “wife” actually simply means “woman”
Not so simply. The range of meaning can mean woman or wife, depending on context.

Strong’s defines it:
  1. gunh gune, goo-nay’
    probably from the base of 1096; a woman; specially, a wife:–wife, woman.
When it’s posessive, it means wife, as in:
Mt 5:31 "It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’

Same word. You only divorce a wife.
 
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